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Post by paulhannah on Oct 4, 2016 17:47:13 GMT
I'm stumped. I'm trying to design a scenario for the historically (and artistically) significant Battle of Caecus River, 241 BC, between II/30b Galatians and II/34 Pergamenes. It's the battle in which the Celtic invasion of Greece and Asia Minor was arrested. And, it's the battle immortalized in this famous piece of Hellenistic art, "The Dying Gaul". There are no known details of the battle, which, of course, leaves us free to make them up entirely! I envision a standard, 12-element (or approximately 12) scenario. I tried incorporating these few shreds of info into the scenario: 1) It was located near the source of a river. So, I placed a "corner" River a two Marshes generally in the center and right of the Pergamenes' Deployment Area. A Difficult Hill was near the Galatians' base edge. Ample GG still on the Pergamenes' left for Cavalry and Chariotry to operate. 2) The Galatians were invading the Greeks' homelands. From that I gleaned that the Pergamenes Citizen Militia would be the 2x7Hd option. Also, altered the VC's so that any Celtic 4Wb that exited the Pergamene base-edge would count as a Greek element lost. I hoped that would cause the Pergamenes to use their many Psiloi aggressively in defense. But the play-tests were all duds. The Greek Psiloi didn't dare come out of the swamps with all that Celtic horse about. The Galatians largely ignored the Marshes, dispatched the Greek Hordes and Cavalry, and easily marched off the board on their way to Pergamon. I need some fresh ideas and am hoping more creative minds than mine can help me.
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Post by timurilank on Oct 4, 2016 23:06:15 GMT
Hi Paul,
Looking at the map coordinates (GPS Visualizer) of the river and tracing a route toward its source a number of questions come to mind.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bak%C4%B1r%C3%A7ay
You mention using marsh as a terrain option in your scenario and from a game design perspective I would conclude these would result from flooding caused by melting snow, thus making river crossing difficult or from heavy period of rain causing marsh or boggy areas.
Assuming an invading Galatian army would move along a route offering a high level of profit (plunder), one might imagine the presence of a BUA as an optional terrain feature (perhaps placed in the Galatian deployment area?) and a ford to facilitate river crossing.
If the scenario is set during the summer season, marsh could be replaced with several small rocky ground areas hindering the Galatian chariots but offer an incentive for the Pergamene psiloi to double move and eventually flank the Galatian foot.
Looking at the map and following the river’s course most of the “difficult hills” should be placed in the Pergamene deployment area or east of the river.
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Post by Haardrada on Oct 5, 2016 9:35:23 GMT
It looks like part of your problem is that the Psiloi are not as effective in this scenario as they were historically. Maybe you need to "tweek" the ruled so that you get simular to the histrical performance without making things too one sided.The Galatians by your description are not getting enough opposition to stop them achieving the scenario goals so here are a few suggestions you could consider:
For this scenario only give Ps a quick kill on Wb if they win in combat, if this seems too much advantage then QK only on a draw.
Maybe also allow the Greek Ps a +1 in combat against Galatian Cav/Chariots but leave the outcomes the same., this may encourage your Pergamene players not to hide in bad going.
You could go further and suspend the +1 support factor for Wb for this scenario saying there is good going but not good enough to allow the support rule?This could narrow the combat margins for combat for the foot elements and allow a bit of pushing to go on and allow chances for flanking persuers.
Good luck with your scenario and I hope you find a way to play the battle that works for you.
Eddie
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Post by paulhannah on Oct 5, 2016 18:16:05 GMT
Robert, your suggestions were very helpful. By placing a few, smaller BG & RG features, the Greek Psiloi now have the option of using them as "stepping stones", just as you suggested. Yet, a large swath of GG in the center gives the Galatian horse the corridor of approach they plausibly would have used. I also changed the VC's so that any Galatian Cv or LCh (instead of Wb) element that exits the Greek base-edge counts as a lost Pergamene element.
Eddie, you had some good, out-of-the-box ideas too. Thanks for those. Since several in our group are still hesitant to cool about DBA-3, I want to keep the basic mechanics and such unchanged, as much as possible.
So, here's the scenario now, with hard-coded terrain and Pergamene deployment for the scenario.The Battle of Caecus River, 241 BC
Created by Paul A. Hannah
II/30b Galatian vs. II/34 Attalid Pergamene Historical Background
The eastern migration of Celtic tribes in the 3rd Century BC caused great unrest in the Greek world. Pergamon in Asia Minor initially paid tribute to the Galatians in return for protection against further raids. King Attalus I, who ascended to the Pergamene throne in 241 BC, ceased further payments. Both sides mobilized for war. In the pivotal battle, the Greeks and Barbarians met “near the source of the Caecus River”, west of Pergamon. Terrain, as shown belowThe battlefield is as shown. There are 2 Difficult Hills (BG) near the Pergamene edge. Continuing in a clockwise manner, the other features, all small, are a Woods (BG), a Gully (BG) to represent the river’s source, an Enclosure (RG), and a Marsh (BG). Order of Battle II/30b Galatian 1xLCh (Gen), 1xLCh, 2xCv, 5x4Wb, 2xPs (Psidian Greeks), 1x4Wb or SCh. II/34 Attalid Pergamene 1xCv (Gen, as noted by a white D6), 1xCv, 1xLH, 2x7Hd (Citizen Militia), 7xPs Deployment
The Pergamene deployment is hardcoded as shown. There is no Pergamene Camp. The Galatian player deploys within the DBA-3 deployment restrictions and moves first. Victory Conditions
Normal DBA, except that any Galatian Cv or LCh element that exits the Pergamene base-edge counts as an element lost for the Pergamene player. (This is to simulate the importance, to the Greeks, of stopping the Celtic invasion.) Aftermath
There are no known details of the battle, so this scenario is entirely conjectural. The terrain was loosely based on Google Maps at a plausible location for the battle. What is known is that the Pergamenes achieved a major victory, and the Galatians’ migration into Asia Minor was halted. Attalus I took on the surname “Sóter” (Savior), and the battle was commemorated in the famous Hellenistic sculpture, “The Dying Gaul”.
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Post by Haardrada on Oct 5, 2016 20:08:40 GMT
Great news Paul, hope you guys enjoy your game and maybe you will post it on here?
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Post by paulhannah on Oct 5, 2016 20:34:23 GMT
Great news Paul, hope you guys enjoy your game and maybe you will post it on here? Will do. They'll take the field in live action (not just play-tests) this evening. Meanwhile, here's a posed shot of the Pergamene Citizen Militia. If I recall correctly, they and Spartan Helots are the only Horde elements among all Greek / Hellenistic armies, right? Truly ancient, 15mm Heritage figures. Pergamenes were my first-ever Ancients army, way back in WRG 6th days. The cavalry still sport their 1980 paint-scheme.
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Post by Haardrada on Oct 5, 2016 23:13:10 GMT
If I recall correctly, they and Spartan Helots are the only Horde elements among all Greek / Hellenistic armies, right? Do the Alexandrian rioters in the Late Ptolemaic army count?
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Post by Commiades on Oct 6, 2016 3:18:48 GMT
A nice looking scenario. One way to change the balance would be to give the Pergamenes some 3Ax or 4Ax instead of the 7Hd. Is there any reason that you decided on the 7Hd? They're not too flash against 4Wb! I'm impressed at 14 figures on a horde base, mind!
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Post by paulhannah on Oct 6, 2016 13:06:51 GMT
A nice looking scenario. One way to change the balance would be to give the Pergamenes some 3Ax or 4Ax instead of the 7Hd. Is there any reason that you decided on the 7Hd? They're not too flash against 4Wb! I'm impressed at 14 figures on a horde base, mind! Thanks, Commiades. Totally agree that running that Pergamene Citizen Militia as 4Ax instead of 7Hd would serve the Greeks better, but here's my rationale keeping the Horde option: - With so little historical evidence available, I made the plausible guess that, faced with this perilous invasion, if ever the Pergamenes would muster their artisans and bankers into a "home guard", this was it.
- I wanted to give the Galatian player a tactical dilemma: Send the 4Wb down the GG chute, with the potential of QK's on the Hordes, or, run the Cv / LCh down the center, with the potential of winning by exiting the Greeks' base-edge.
- I love Hordes. BTW, there are "only" 13 figures on each base, not 14. --Who would ever put 14 figures on a base?
The scenario played to favorable reviews last night. The Barbarians won 3 out of 4, all by close scores, e.g. 4-3, etc. Here's one view of action in the center as things started to go south for the Greeks in one game. We did make one last change: The Rocky Area at the 3 O'Clock position (see map above) was changed to a Marsh (BG). Made for a more interesting game. Who knew one could have so much fun with seven Psiloi?
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Post by fanatichris on Oct 6, 2016 19:48:45 GMT
Thinking about the relationship of the Caecus (Bakırçay) River to Pergamon on a modern map....where the river runs roughly SW to NE, but to the south of both the modern city of Bergama and the ancient site of Pergamon, I wonder if the gully (river source) shouldn't be on the right side of the Pergamene set-up, instead of the left? The presumption being that the Galatians may have been moving westward, reaching the "source" of the river and looking to follow its northern bank towards Peragmon.
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Post by paulhannah on Oct 6, 2016 20:46:13 GMT
Sounds good to me, Chris. But, before making the change, maybe we should all pack our bags for a week or two of on-site "research". Grins.
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