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Post by sheffmark on Sept 14, 2016 12:24:26 GMT
This may seem a daft question, I know but, the other night we played our first BBDBA game (Gauls v Romans).
When one of the Gallic commands became demoralised the rules say that you can hold a group or individual elements for a PIP, however it also says, "Other elements not in close combat immediately flee......" So presumably elements in close combat don't flee but carry on fighting.
Our query is, do you count supporting ranks, i.e. second rank warband fighting against foot (except Ps), as being in close combat, or is it just the front rank units that automatically hold and the rear ranks flee unless held with PIPs?
If you do count rear ranks as being in close combat, (because they are actually contributing to the fight), does that also mean you should count elements that provide flank support as well??
We played that only the front rank held automatically, but wondered what others play?
Also, a Roman command lost a third of it's total elements part way through its own bound, but it didn't appear to suffer any minus tactical factors in the following Gallic bound, because it only becomes actually demoralised at the start of its bound. Is this correct?
Cheers
Mark
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Post by lkmjbc on Sept 14, 2016 18:19:10 GMT
You are in close combat only if you are fighting or providing rear support. Overlapping elements aren't counted in close combat... Phil never defined Flank Support this way... so Flank Support doesn't count.
"Start" of its bound is correct.
Joe Collins
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Post by bob on Sept 15, 2016 0:39:17 GMT
I'm not to so sure that providing rear support counts as being in close combat. The rules define close combat as:
"It occurs when an element moves into, or remains in, both front edge and front corner-to-corner contact with an enemy element or at least partial front edge contact with a city, fort or camp. ''
''When an element is in close combat both to front and to flank or rear or in close combat to its front and overlapped, only it and the enemy element in front fight each other. Others only provide tactical factors.''
In the shooting section it seems clear that "or rear support" excludes it from being close combat.
''Shooting is not possible if either shooters or target are in close combat or providing rear support, but is possible to or from elements that are overlapping and not in close combat. ''
Maybe it should go to the FAQ group to decide :-)
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Post by ronisan on Sept 15, 2016 8:07:20 GMT
Hi,
an element in 'rear support' is part of the frontal combat. It can be contacted on its flank and that contact is treated as being a flank contact on the front element.
Combat is taking place between elements in opposite position. Imagine rear support as one big melee (think of it as the 'plus' for your Combat Factor!)
Cheers,
Ronald.
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doug
Munifex
Posts: 12 
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Post by doug on Sept 15, 2016 13:41:56 GMT
My view, (and this is how it is played in DBMM) is that rear ranks run, they are not in close combat, they may be providing support to a unit in close combat.
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Post by sheffmark on Sept 21, 2016 12:19:18 GMT
Thanks everyone for the views.
It seems there is no definitive agreement on this one, though as Bob has quoted, the rules seem to imply that supporting ranks shouldn't be counted as in close combat, at least for this example. However if there is any official clarification in future that would be great.
In the meantime I think we'll carry on playing it this way.
Cheers
Mark
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Post by primuspilus on Sept 21, 2016 14:17:15 GMT
Hi, an element in 'rear support' is part of the frontal combat. It can be contacted on its flank and that contact is treated as being a flank contact on the front element. Combat is taking place between elements in opposite position. Imagine rear support as one big melee (think of it as the 'plus' for your Combat Factor!) Cheers, Ronald. Hmm, that's not what the rules imply. Seems under the Close Combat paragraphs, only the elements touching each other are deemed to be "fighting" (whatever that means). All others merely provide tactical factors. So it seems to imply that you can use bowfire to chase away a supporting pike element. Longbow can really smash up a pike phalanx .. |
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Post by menacussecundus on Sept 21, 2016 16:02:26 GMT
"Shooting is not possible if either shooters or target are in close combat or providing rear support....." (start of second paragraph in the section on DISTANT SHOOTING on page 10) |
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Post by bob on Sept 21, 2016 17:15:56 GMT
Indeed, as I cited above. Rear support is not close combat. Otherwise the rule would say shooting is not possible if target in close combat, including providing rear support.
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Post by primuspilus on Sept 22, 2016 11:22:26 GMT
I think that seals the point.
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Post by lkmjbc on Sept 22, 2016 21:49:25 GMT
I think that seals the point. Yes... I think that reference pretty much answers the question... Joe Collins |
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