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Post by crazycaptain560 on May 27, 2016 17:21:08 GMT
So in games like DBR, and DBA-RRR, you do have elements of a pike and shot formation with (non DBA terms) pikes and shooters. IIRC, in DBA-RRR Pikes give side support to shooting elements. I like this rule as it promotes Pike and Shot formations. However, I have always been confused on how element based games handle said formations. Is it accurate that a wing may recoil away from the main body of the formation? The pikes? I am familiar with rules like FOG and Pike and Shot that have the whole formation available to damage, but it's base cohesion never lost.
So this is more of a history question.
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hdan
Munifex
Posts: 35
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Post by hdan on May 27, 2016 19:27:41 GMT
Historically from what I understand, the pike and shot soldiers were part of the same battlefield formation, and didn't act independently of each other.
I personally prefer the idea that a "pike&shot" formation should be a single element, more like how Volley&Bayonet manages things. But, and this is important in a miniatures game, single-element p&s stands don't look good on the table. 2 shot figures flanking 2 pike figures just looks silly. You really need 4 stands to make it look at all sensible (a 2 pike column flanked by 2 shot elements).
I suspect the secret to handling these formations in element-based games is a bit of role playing in how you move your stands.
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Post by Cromwell on May 27, 2016 19:54:12 GMT
I have experimented with using Pike and Shot elements in DB-RRR and in my 2mm games that is how most of my elements are based. With my 25mm figures I play DB-RRR with separate shot and pike elements. I also use the Splendid Victory rules and for those I have 4 stands of shot flanking 2 stands of pike. Looks good and plays well . The picture above shows a regiment based for Splendid Victory Rules. The Officer figure is there to denote that the unit depicted is veteran.
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Post by crazycaptain560 on May 27, 2016 23:16:27 GMT
I know there were commanded shot, but could the recoil represent one of the wings being pushed away from the formation during the melee? Or a symbol of a disrupted formation. I have read something of the sort somewhere that formation breakups in DBx systems simulate more of a breakup of the formation rather than a true separation. Huh. This is why my first forces (Big battle once I am done painting) are the Ottomans and the Polish for the fascinating eastern renaissance.
I am always trying to figure out, in any system, the balance between the aesthetics, history, and my imagination.
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Post by Piyan Glupak on May 28, 2016 5:25:10 GMT
My impression is that the ratio of shot tended to increase during the English Civil War, but might vary by which army it was. One of the problems with having pike and shot on the same base is that you can't easily vary the proportion of pike to shot. This means that you either have to have a lot of elements, or use records of what each stand represents in the game currently being played. Using separate pike and shot elements gives you quite a lot of options about how they are put together.
The normal scale of DBR (100 men per pike or shot element) works reasonably well, assuming a field strength of regiments or turcios as likely to be between 300 and 600. Unfortunately, the condensed scale (which I prefer), where each of these elements represent 400 men, is not so realistic in this respect. In DBA RRR, an element of pike or shot would represent about 1,000 to 1,200 men.
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Post by Cromwell on May 28, 2016 7:09:30 GMT
I have played games where I have adapted DB-RRR. I use Pike/shot formations made up of one stand of pikes and two flanking stands of shot. They move together as one element however in combat each stand fights independently,Pikes use the pike stats and shot the stats for shot, this means stands can individually recoil, thus fragmenting the formation and requiring precious PIP's to restore the cohesion. Individual stands can also be eliminated once a regiment is reduced to one stand it is eliminated. For break points I tot up the total individual elements in the army and then divide by 3 thus giving me my break point. I have found this idea to work well. I use a D10 die For PIP rolls otherwise the game can drag with too little movement, especially when PIP's are expended restoring cohesion. I agree that as the ECW progressed the ratio of shot to pike increased. On paper I believe an Infantry regiment in the New Model Army was supposed to be two shot to one Pike. Although Royalist forces more often than not were one shot to one pike. Mainly due to difficulty in obtaining firearms.
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