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Post by stevie on Oct 18, 2019 9:54:16 GMT
I have a quick question for all you HoTT veterans out there.
“Pursuit” on page 26 (softcover version) says:- “Knights, Behemoths, Beasts and Warbands (plus their rear-support) whose close combat opponents recoil, break off, flee or are destroyed immediately pursue”.
But what happens when a close combat opponent recoils due to a distant magical attack? Do Kn, Beh, Bst and Wb still pursue them, and, if still in contact, also fight them as well?
(I assume that yes, they do. Recoiling, fleeing, and being destroyed are all combat outcomes... ...but braking-off Is not, yet still causes pursuit. And recoiling from a distant magical attack caused by a third party could be considered as an involuntary breaking-off manoeuvre)
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Post by martin on Oct 18, 2019 12:44:11 GMT
I have a quick question for all you HoTT veterans out there. “Pursuit” on page 26 (softcover version) says:- “Knights, Behemoths, Beasts and Warbands (plus their rear-support) whose close combat opponents recoil, break off, flee or are destroyed immediately pursue”. But what happens when a close combat opponent recoils due to a distant magical attack? Do Kn, Beh, Bst and Wb still pursue them, and, if still in contact, also fight them as well? (I assume that yes, they do. Recoiling, fleeing, and being destroyed are all combat outcomes... ...but braking-off Is not, yet still causes pursuit. And recoiling from a distant magical attack caused by a third party could be considered as an involuntary breaking-off manoeuvre)Yes, The ‘impetuous’ element in contact pursues as the recoiling element falls back as a result of magical attack. (This may mean eg that the recoiling element now has no recoil available for the subsequent close combat, or that the overlap situation for either or both elements changes).
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Post by stevie on Oct 18, 2019 18:08:28 GMT
Thanks for that Martin. I thought as much, but it's better to thrash these things out here on Fanaticus rather than in the middle of a game. It has certainly given me some ideas for a few cunning plans...
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Post by bob on Oct 30, 2019 3:45:10 GMT
Yes
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Post by sheffmark on Oct 30, 2019 16:22:48 GMT
I wouldn't class myself as a HOTT veteran, but as a counter argument to this:
“Pursuit” on page 26 (softcover version) says:- “Knights, Behemoths, Beasts and Warbands (plus their rear-support) whose close combat opponents recoil, break off, flee or are destroyed immediately pursue”.
I.e it says "close combat opponents" Page 13 sequence of play says that bespelling comes before close combat. Therefore if you bespell a unit and they recoil, flee etc then theoretically no close combat has taken place (if contact occurred earlier in the bound) and so there shouldn't be any pursuit.
However there could be an anomaly if troops who fought last bound and stood. They would then count as being in close combat so would pursue! So I'd be quite happy the way suggested above.
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Post by stevie on Oct 30, 2019 17:08:42 GMT
Well spotted Mark you old rule lawyer you! However, Close Combat on page 21 (softcover edition of HoTT 2.1) says:- “Close combat occurs when an element has moved into, or remains in, both edge and corner-to-contact lined-up with a enemy element or in at least partial front-edge contact with an enemy Stronghold.” In other words, just having a front-edge in contact constitutes as being in close combat...whether the combat die roll has been made or not. But like yourself I’m not really bothered either one way or the other... ...but it would be nice if we all interpreted the rules in the same way. Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by sheffmark on Nov 7, 2019 9:26:50 GMT
Well spotted Mark you old rule lawyer you! However, Close Combat on page 21 (softcover edition of HoTT 2.1) says:- “Close combat occurs when an element has moved into, or remains in, both edge and corner-to-contact lined-up with a enemy element or in at least partial front-edge contact with an enemy Stronghold.” In other words, just having a front-edge in contact constitutes as being in close combat...whether the combat die roll has been made or not. But like yourself I’m not really bothered either one way or the other... ...but it would be nice if we all interpreted the rules in the same way. Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
Hi Stevie Not sure which I object to most, being called a 'rule lawyer', or being called 'old' However to prove your first accusation, how about this: An enemy warband element moves into contact with a friendly unit of blades Friendly Magician bespells the warband and it recoils. Blades don't follow up. Does the blade and warband then fight? According to your reading, Yes, because "Close combat occurs when an element has moved into, .... both edge and corner-to-contact lined-up with a enemy element. The warband has done this so close combat occurs. It's in the rules!
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Post by martin on Nov 7, 2019 10:24:10 GMT
Well spotted Mark you old rule lawyer you! However, Close Combat on page 21 (softcover edition of HoTT 2.1) says:- “Close combat occurs when an element has moved into, or remains in, both edge and corner-to-contact lined-up with a enemy element or in at least partial front-edge contact with an enemy Stronghold.” In other words, just having a front-edge in contact constitutes as being in close combat...whether the combat die roll has been made or not. But like yourself I’m not really bothered either one way or the other... ...but it would be nice if we all interpreted the rules in the same way. Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
Hi Stevie Not sure which I object to most, being called a 'rule lawyer', or being called 'old' However to prove your first accusation, how about this: An enemy warband element moves into contact with a friendly unit of blades Friendly Magician bespells the warband and it recoils. Blades don't follow up. Does the blade and warband then fight? According to your reading, Yes, because "Close combat occurs when an element has moved into, .... both edge and corner-to-contact lined-up with a enemy element. The warband has done this so close combat occurs. It's in the rules! Are you saying that in the warband’s bound (as they’ve done the ‘moving to contact’) an opposing magician does bespelling? I think you’ve lost track of a basic part of the turn sequence there. ....... If the warband moves, it’s their bound. If the warband moves, their enemy can’t do bespelling. Unless I misunderstand......
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Post by sheffmark on Nov 7, 2019 12:24:20 GMT
Hi Stevie Not sure which I object to most, being called a 'rule lawyer', or being called 'old' However to prove your first accusation, how about this: An enemy warband element moves into contact with a friendly unit of blades Friendly Magician bespells the warband and it recoils. Blades don't follow up. Does the blade and warband then fight? According to your reading, Yes, because "Close combat occurs when an element has moved into, .... both edge and corner-to-contact lined-up with a enemy element. The warband has done this so close combat occurs. It's in the rules! Are you saying that in the warband’s bound (as they’ve done the ‘moving to contact’) an opposing magician does bespelling? I think you’ve lost track of a basic part of the turn sequence there. ....... If the warband moves, it’s their bound. If the warband moves, their enemy can’t do bespelling. Unless I misunderstand...... Ah good point. Think you've just proved Stevie's second accusation correct! Ok lets change to blades move into the warband then the magician bespells the warband and they recoil, blades don't follow up, but according to the strict interpretation of the rules as suggested by Stevie then close combat should occur?
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Post by stevie on Nov 7, 2019 14:18:14 GMT
Ah...but there is a get-out clause Mark... ...and it’s Phases. I refer you to page 13, “Sequence of Play”, sub-sections (5) and (6):- Quote: “(6) Any elements of both sides that are in suitable contact with the enemy resolve close combat...” The magic phase occurs before the close combat phase, and if someone recoils then they will no longer be in ‘suitable contact’ in the close combat phase. However, if the enemy likes to pursue then they will still be in ‘suitable contact’, even though they have recoiled once already due to a magical attack. Thus elements can sometimes have to roll and recoil twice in a single bound... ...once for the magical attack, and if pursued then again in close combat phase. (What a loss I am to the legal profession )Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by bob on Nov 7, 2019 15:29:37 GMT
Exactly how I see it. Warband moves into contact with Blades. They are now in suitable contact for combat, but bespelling comes first. The Warband's Druid/Magician bespells the Blades, they recoil. Any resulting outcome moves are made immediately. Pursuit is an outcome move. Warband whose close combat opponents recoil, break off, flee or are destroyed immediately pursues straight forward the lesser of its own base depth or width. The Wb and Bd are again in suitable contact for combat, so the two fight. Note the Bd was not destroyed when it lost to Magician while in contact with Wb, as the combat outcome is result of the opponent rolling the die for the bespelling/combat/shooting.
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Post by martin on Nov 7, 2019 15:40:43 GMT
...and if the Mg got lucky and destroyed the Bd (/other non bounding element of eg lower combat factor), the Wb would still pursue...into open air
It’s sequential....that’s the point to remember.
The Barkers and RBS (?) wrote a very useful set of rules. Dissecting them isn’t helping, stevie..... Looking for fault is just muddying the water, amigo.
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Post by stevie on Nov 7, 2019 16:07:02 GMT
Hmmm...not looking for faults Martin...just trying to understand the rules. This one (“pursue a magically recoiled enemy”) is easy. The other one (“Art/Paladins destroyed if they score less while in contact”) was a bit trickier. But that too has been resolved...providing players don’t take ‘in contact’ toooo literally or out of context like I did. I asked two questions, and got two answers, so I’m a happy bunny.
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Post by sheffmark on Nov 7, 2019 19:38:33 GMT
Glad someone is.
I'm probably more confused now than I was in my ignorant state when this thread started!
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Post by stevie on Nov 8, 2019 11:27:54 GMT
Confused? Then this next bit will make your head spin! This happened in a simple game the other night. What happens to a flank attack when the main front-edge opponent recoils from a magic attack? Here is the situation:- The red player moves two elements to hard-flank a enemy, but they roll equal, so they stand. In the next blue bound, a blue magical attack forces the red front-edge opponent to recoil. There is no pursuit, as the the blue element has an enemy red element in contact with its flank. What happens to this flank attack in the subsequent close combat phase? There are three options...either:- a) the flank attack doesn’t count (see ‘accidental contact’ on page 17, and also diagram 35.1, elements ‘M’ and ‘A’). b) the blue element turns-to-face this flank attack at the start of the combat phase ( as if the red element had just moved into contact with this flank, even though it's not the end of the movement phase). c) nobody moves, but they still fight, as the red element is the ‘main opponent’ (see the bottom of page 21...but can the blue element still recoil with an enemy in front-edge contact to its flank?). I think that option (b) is the most sensible common sense approach in the above situation. (I'm not trying to make things complicated...these situations do and did occur during games)
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