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Post by j on Jul 15, 2019 16:18:37 GMT
p11
says "Troops that enter a river must continue crossing at the same angle to its course as they enter, or divert by the minimum necessary to line up in close combat with an enemy element
"
Is there a max angle that a river can be moved through?
If an element , say LH, gets a combat outcome of Flee while it is in a non-paltry river, does it do so at its full tactical move of 4 BW or is it reduced to 1BW due to the river?
Regards,
j
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Post by primuspilus on Jul 15, 2019 16:30:22 GMT
Fleeing into ANY river is fatal. But if the lead element in a column crosses the river, there is an immediate magic floating bridge built in place!
See, your LH clearly neglected to avail themselves of the magic bridge!
I noticed that the "magic bridge" rule is also in Hordes of the Things. It is appropriate in a fantasy setting, again since rivers can be up to 200p in width (that is a wide, wide river if you are using BW measurement!!!)
But in v3, rivers get mangled a bit. Yup, even Ps die if they flee into a river.
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Post by vtsaogames on Jul 15, 2019 19:59:05 GMT
Thanks for this. I always thought the column kept moving at the slowest speed across the river.
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Post by primuspilus on Jul 16, 2019 0:44:02 GMT
That's the way I play it, otherwise rivers get ridiculous in v3. Especially with elements pursuing FROM river bank defences, into the river after their beaten foes!
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Post by primuspilus on Jul 16, 2019 0:46:45 GMT
Oddly enough, you'll find many DBA players in your travels, who have strong views on BUAs and rivers, but who will cheerfully admit under cross-examination that they have hardly ever used them at all! Strange.
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Post by vtsaogames on Jul 16, 2019 1:19:45 GMT
I have strong views on BUAs, having played one game with one back when it was first introduced (2.2?). My usual opponent and I both agreed it was silly and instead put down woods or steep hills instead. Right now I'll go with ruins or such. Maybe I'll make a BUA model for my plastic guys. Not very motivated.
The puppet administration seemed more apropos to a campaign rather than a battle. And I spotted the artillery turret effect pretty early on.
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Post by primuspilus on Jul 16, 2019 2:21:14 GMT
Read Thucydides for a nice tale showing how many times a walled town could change hands … in the same (albeit long) day. Have you reviewed the rules for hamlets? Cities (really just walled towns, or the gate complex for larger cities) play quite nicely, overall. Actually I use forts to simulate besieged and cut off Roman marching camps. They are under attack/cut off by Gauls, and a Roman relief column shows up. That is a fun fight!
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Post by bob on Jul 16, 2019 5:08:50 GMT
I have strong views on BUAs, having played one game with one back when it was first introduced (2.2?). My usual opponent and I both agreed it was silly and instead put down woods or steep hills instead. Right now I'll go with ruins or such. Maybe I'll make a BUA model for my plastic guys. Not very motivated. The puppet administration seemed more apropos to a campaign rather than a battle. And I spotted the artillery turret effect pretty early on. In 2.2 the alternative to the BUA (which was just a city then) was a road. Phil listened to complaints and gave this option. |
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Post by bob on Jul 16, 2019 5:25:22 GMT
p11 says "Troops that enter a river must continue crossing at the same angle to its course as they enter, or divert by the minimum necessary to line up in close combat with an enemy element " Is there a max angle that a river can be moved through?
If an element , say LH, gets a combat outcome of Flee while it is in a non-paltry river, does it do so at its full tactical move of 4 BW or is it reduced to 1BW due to the river?
Regards,
jNo max angle, but there must be an angle, that is you cannot move along and in the river. "A fleeing element turns 180 degrees in place; and then moves straight forward without turning for its full tactical move distance for the going it starts in." If after the recoil, the front edge of the LH is out of the river, it can move the 4BW. If the front edge is in the river, then it can only do a river move. As discussed in an earlier thread (http://fanaticus.boards.net/thread/2090/column-movement-out-river) ACCORDING TO THE RULES a single element or a column escapes the 1BW river move when the front edge is out of the river. I guess some people want the rule to be that the river distance applies as long as any part of any element is still in the river, but Phil thinks following elements can move faster once the first has crossed. |
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Post by stevie on Jul 16, 2019 5:52:01 GMT
You are right Bob. It is a bit odd that columns can move at full speed once the front edge of the column is clear of the water, yet columns leaving rough or bad going are still slowed if their tail is still in the hindering terrain. It would have been nice, and simpler, if the column movement rules were a bit more consistent. Napoleonic warfare shows us that columns were slightly faster and more manoeuvrable than mere lines... ...it’s a pity that Phil Barker thinks this does not also apply to ancient warfare as well. Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by jim1973 on Jul 16, 2019 8:38:06 GMT
I'll play devil's advocate and suggest we're missing Phil's subtlety. How wide would a fordable river be in the Ancient world? Between 5-30m? We're not talking about the Nile. Whereas a wood, for example, maybe 100x100m? Now think of how many troops our elements represent. Perhaps Phil thinks that the relative short distance where troops are slowed can be easily made up before and after crossing. But area terrain features, covering a larger area, have a greater effect.
Cheers
Jim
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Post by jim1973 on Jul 16, 2019 8:39:12 GMT
I got this idea watching the classic Waterloo movie, where the French crossed the river at Charlois.
Jim
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Post by Vic on Jul 16, 2019 8:54:42 GMT
My take:
p11 says "Troops that enter a river must continue crossing at the same angle to its course as they enter, or divert by the minimum necessary to line up in close combat with an enemy element " Is there a max angle that a river can be moved through? No: the only requirement is that it doesn't change until you're through (or you contact an enemy element and have to conform). This means that crossing a non-paltry river at a small angle to its course will most likely take several bounds and soak your PIPs up, but it's legal to enter the river at whatever angle. Note that moving forward until you're through or conforming to an enemy you contact in the process are the only choices: it's not just that you cannot turn, you can't move backwards or turn around and go back over your steps either - once you start crossing the river, you have to keep moving forward until you're out. Note also that this restriction on movement also applies to paltry rivers: you can cross them at Good Going speed and in a group move, but you still can't change direction while on the river.
If an element , say LH, gets a combat outcome of Flee while it is in a non-paltry river, does it do so at its full tactical move of 4 BW or is it reduced to 1BW due to the river?
Neither: it is destroyed; see p. 12 pp. 8, under "Fleeing": "[The fleeing element] is destroyed [...] if it enters a river". Note that this applie to all rivers (even paltry). I assume this is meant to represent the fact that, historically speaking, armies scrambling to cross a river in panic essentially disintegrate as a force - it is hard enough to try and rally a mass of soldiers fleeing for their lives in open terrain back into a cohesive, effective force without the pressure of a pursuing enemy ("flee" combat results only occur in relatively "safe" situations for the fleeing troops), but once it's every man for himself crossing a river, perhaps even discarding encumbering weapons and armour in the process, it's final.
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Post by stevie on Jul 16, 2019 10:24:37 GMT
Although I agree with most of what you say Vic, I’m afraid I disagree with this bit:- Note that moving forward until you're through or conforming to an enemy you contact in the process are the only choices:
it's not just that you cannot turn, you can't move backwards or turn around and go back over your steps either -
once you start crossing the river, you have to keep moving forward until you're out. After all, what happens if you are recoiled into a river? Can you not back-out as well as go forward? And what about pursuing into a river? Could not the pursuers back-out to resume their riverbank defensive status? For the record, here is what the latest January 2019 FAQ has to say:- Rivers: Q: When crossing a river for the first time, do I have to test at its near bank? A: Yes, you test when you first touch the river. Q: If I don’t have the movement to finish crossing a non-paltry river or I had to stop because I had moved more than 1BW when I contacted it , do I have to finish the crossing next turn? A: No. Q: If an element flees into a river, it is destroyed. Is an element that recoils into a river destroyed? A: No. Q: May I deploy in a river? A: No. Q: The river in our battle was rolled to be “paltry”. I have an element that needs to move down it in order to get on the flank of an enemy element. Can I move laterally down the river? A: No. The river counts as good going for tactical move distance purposes. Group moves are allowed. The limitations concerning troops crossing at the same angle to its course as they enter and troops not being able to shoot while in a river still apply. Please note that a fleeing element that enters a paltry river is still destroyed as well. (My interpretation of the last question is that troops in a river can only move straight forwards, straight
backwards, or to conform)Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by Vic on Jul 16, 2019 11:15:38 GMT
After all, what happens if you are recoiled into a river? Can you not back-out as well as go forward? And what about pursuing into a river? Could not the pursuers back-out to resume their riverbank defensive status?
In my opinion, exactly the same: you can only move forward until you're out.
I'm not convinced for now that the phrase "must continue crossing at the same angle to its course as they enter" can be interpreted in a way that includes doing an about-turn and returning to the same bank you came from, or voluntarily move backwards into the river, but I'd be interested in reading an argument for it.
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