|
Post by wyvern on Mar 16, 2019 7:10:15 GMT
I am planning a campaign with the Greek city states and their colonies, plus Persia and Carthage, well basically I'm doing the suggested "Greeks in Peril" campaign idea from 2.2. I'm of course going to be using DBA but also Poseidon's Warriors for the ship to ship combat, because I don't think naval combat can be ignored during this period.This was only supposed to be a bit of a side project but for some reason it's snowballed and the next thing you know I have copies of Herodotus and Thucydides winging their way to me in the post! I've never read anything Classical before so it's a first for me The planning side of the project is going well, figures and ships have been sourced. The problem I have is I just don't know whether the troops from Syracuse would have been dressed like Italiot hoplites or more like Greek hoplites, does anyone know? I'm a bit of a perfectionist and I want to get it right, down to the last detail. It's one of my peculiarities I'm afraid. I would gladly post photos of my project but I've had problems posting photos on this forum but I think that has been duly noted in another thread. Plus I am not really good with technology and am still unfamiliar with computers even in this day and age!! (much to the frustration of my wife, who I ask for PC advice all the time). I think I will try and set a blog up though and get savvy with all this PC malarkey! Hope you all don't mind my plugging you all for information. Cheerio for now, Paul.
|
|
|
Post by greedo on Mar 16, 2019 14:58:30 GMT
I couldn’t answer the Syracuse Hoplite question, but it sure sounds like an exciting project. Can’t wait to see the pics!
|
|
|
Post by hammurabi70 on Mar 16, 2019 17:30:25 GMT
Yes, make sure you update us with this. I am keen to learn more about POSEIDON'S WARRIORS as I am looking at getting this to do naval gaming, with an aim to doing campaigns much as you describe. However, while looking for fleet rules I became somewhat dubious about these rules because of this review: ramsravensandwrecks.blogspot.com/2016/07/poseidons-warriors-wargame-book-review.htmlNo indication of having issues of diekplous or periplous tactics; perhaps hoplite warfare could be reduced to a straight numbers fight as well.
|
|
|
Post by wyvern on Mar 17, 2019 3:33:22 GMT
Yes, make sure you update us with this. I am keen to learn more about POSEIDON'S WARRIORS as I am looking at getting this to do naval gaming, with an aim to doing campaigns much as you describe. However, while looking for fleet rules I became somewhat dubious about these rules because of this review: ramsravensandwrecks.blogspot.com/2016/07/poseidons-warriors-wargame-book-review.htmlNo indication of having issues of diekplous or periplous tactics; perhaps hoplite warfare could be reduced to a straight numbers fight as well. I will keep you posted. It's always a bit of a gamble with a new set of rules. If they are no good I believe there are other sets about. I had some concerns about gaming with Hoplites and wondered if it would turn into a shoving match with all those Sp. But I will play with DBA initially and then try Lost Battles and Simon Miller's To the Strongest rules. I think they will give a good game. Sometimes you just have to wait and see. Cheers, Paul.
|
|
|
Post by jdesmond on Mar 20, 2019 12:35:52 GMT
Salutations, Wyvern, and other gentlefolk !
One could, of course, paint them in the Syracuse University colors of orange and blue (Their teams are known as 'The Orangemen', and their mascot costumed as a giant ambulatory citrus fruit.)
|
|
|
Post by wyvern on Mar 20, 2019 13:23:42 GMT
Salutations, Wyvern, and other gentlefolk ! One could, of course, paint them in the Syracuse University colors of orange and blue (Their teams are known as 'The Orangemen', and their mascot costumed as a giant ambulatory citrus fruit.) Haha I could I suppose, or I could paint them in the colours of our local soccer team SC Freiburg (red and black)!
|
|
|
Post by hamilcar on Mar 20, 2019 16:07:41 GMT
This period and area is my favourite - I will follow this too!
The sources are a bit thin on the ground, but I think Syracuse's hoplites would be more like the Greek ones. Having said that, their armies included large mercenary bodies almost by default - and they have recruited from colonies in Italy, as well as from other parts of Greece, but also other Italian nations (DBMM lists have them using Oscan javelin men and Campanian hoplites - and let's not forget that Mamertines were Campanian too). During the Athenian expedition they received several batches of Peloponnesian and Corinthian hoplites and I believe that the majority of their hoplites later came from poorer areas of mainland Greece. The Syuracusans had a predilection for tyrants, who relied on their mercenaries to keep the citizens in check, as much as for military campaigns. Of course, there would have been some mixing of equipment too. All said, their army could best be represented by a mix of equipment, the greek styles dominating (and I have assembled and painted my Syracusan army to reflect this!).
As for Poseidon's Warriors, it is a simple game. I feel though that there are a few areas which have not been considered/tested enough and it shows. If you do use these rules then do modify them to suit how you think it should work! Having said that, I am yet to find a set of rules for naval fighting I'm happy about - most of them are complicated enough to reduce the game to a small number of ships per side, while others lack flavour and generally don't work like the actual sea battles of the period did. For example, none have mechanism to represent one side pushing the other back and the chaos that follows, with ships crashing into their allies or crews running ashore in desperation. Moreover, periplous and diekplous tactics are not really represented. I remember finding some DBA rules for ancient navies a while ago - they seemed reasonable and could be a better bet for you here.
If you can figure a way to integrate the two together then littoral landings could have a more real meaning! Though most battles of the period were separate naval or ground engagements, a few included both and were very interesting - particularly the battles in the Great Harbour of Syracuse during the failed Athenian siege.
Lastly, good job on picking up Herodotus and Thucydides! You can find readings of both of these and many others on youtube - a great time-saver as you can listen to them on your way to work/school/wherever and while painting! This allowed me to go through them about five times each so far :-) Having the books is still a must though as after listening you will want to go back to the book and read the most important parts. There are some ropey accents and pronunciations, which feel like dragging my nails over a blackboard, but they are worth bearing.
Good luck with your campaign!
|
|
|
Post by wyvern on Mar 21, 2019 5:04:55 GMT
Hi Hamilcar, It's great information that😀thanks. I have been doing a bit of research meanwhile. The Greek cities beyond Greece itself of course we're colonies. It appears that generally an individual city state would build a colony and the population was drawn from that city state and it's immediate surroundings. Therefore, one one could argue that arms and armour would be heavily influenced by the parent city. This of course doesn't account for mercenaries and the Italiot Greeks but it is a factor. They can also be divided into Dorian and Ionian categories, I'm wondering if the Dorian's would have followed Spartan traditions and costume.
I will give Poisiedon's Warriors a go and see. I believe there are some paper ships available from the Junior General website which could be useful, as I haven't bought the ships yet. I was planning to get them from Tumbling Dice eventually. I'm not sure but I think there is a DBA alt for galley warfare buried in the wiki somewhere, that is also a possible candidate.
It would be quite something to make a literal landing and take "Syracuse" in a DBA game!😀 The fact that the rules cater for this scenario is also quite impressive, considering that DBA appears a"simple" game at first glance.
I started reading Herodotus and it's going well so far, it's an interesting read. Wargaming is so much more than the actual gaming, that's why it's such a great hobby!
Cheers, Paul
|
|
|
Post by scottrussell on Mar 21, 2019 8:44:14 GMT
According to The Times Atlas of World History, Syracuse was a Dorian colony, but founded by Corinth, rather than Sparta.
Scott
|
|
|
Post by primuspilus on Mar 21, 2019 14:45:50 GMT
You will find after reading both that your view on Persian combat effectiveness changes somewhat - away from the effete slaves in pyjamas and mascara so beloved of Western movie-makers.
Also, you will see how hoplites frequently engaged in running battles in rough terrain, where they clearly did not deploy as one massive spear line. DBA does pitched battles a bit better, but the terrain rules, plus (and I recommend these) Stevie's time clock rules putting pressure on one side to get on with it already, you can recreate the running mixed cavalry, light infantry and hoplite battles nicely.
Fortifications (like the siege walls) not so much. But if you just imagine that there is a wall within each element's space at start, the overall effect is the same - if one side doesn't attack a line of hoplites, assume it was because there was a wall! And by my read, walls in the ancient war setting were frequently breached, so they shouldn't be an impenetrable line...
|
|
|
Post by wyvern on Mar 21, 2019 16:20:13 GMT
According to The Times Atlas of World History, Syracuse was a Dorian colony, but founded by Corinth, rather than Sparta. Scott Thanks, a good point, I have much to learn!
|
|
|
Post by wyvern on Mar 21, 2019 16:27:34 GMT
You will find after reading both that your view on Persian combat effectiveness changes somewhat - away from the effete slaves in pyjamas and mascara so beloved of Western movie-makers. Also, you will see how hoplites frequently engaged in running battles in rough terrain, where they clearly did not deploy as one massive spear line. DBA does pitched battles a bit better, but the terrain rules, plus (and I recommend these) Stevie's time clock rules putting pressure on one side to get on with it already, you can recreate the running mixed cavalry, light infantry and hoplite battles nicely. Fortifications (like the siege walls) not so much. But if you just imagine that there is a wall within each element's space at start, the overall effect is the same - if one side doesn't attack a line of hoplites, assume it was because there was a wall! And by my read, walls in the ancient war setting were frequently breached, so they shouldn't be an impenetrable line... Thanks for the input. Yes, of course Greece has much rough terrain doesn't it. That makes things much more interesting. It's funny that never occurred to me. I will have to build some more terrain too I think. Luckily I have built a fortified city already! Cheers, Paul
|
|
|
Post by decebalus on Mar 25, 2019 9:44:42 GMT
Duncan Head, Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars, has a picture of a Campanian Hoplite. He is in essence an Oscan with hoplite armour. You could easil build him in 28mm with Victrix Samnites and Greeks mixed. Something would also be possible with 15mm. Like already told, the Marmetines were Campanians.
In the end, this is all conjectural. Who can say, what was stronger in Syracuse: the italian or the greek influence?
BTW wonderful campaign. We will play a weekend campaign "Rise of Macedonian 350 BC" with DBA in two month. I really like DBA with greek armies. Less stone/scissor/paper, more position game.
|
|
|
Post by mark leslie on Mar 25, 2019 11:35:18 GMT
Between the time when the oceans drank Atlantis and the rise of the sons of Aryas (around about the time DBM evaporated around here), I had considered this army.
At the time I had planned on using plain Greek hoplites for the majority of foot with the remainder being mercenary Campanian hoplites. The mounted, treated similarly, would be Greek, Campanian and Tarantine figures. This was never to be, though I did manage a DBA Campanian army three or four years ago, the main draw for me was to build, basicly, a Greek hoplite army with a bit more colour and some exotic options.
So I think it perfectly reasonable to pack your phalanx with feathered mercenaries, both for historical accuracy and for a bit of martial display. I used Essex Campanian hoplites, similar enough but distinctive enough to stand out from the local citizenry.
I also found Jeff Champions Tyrants of Syracuse books of interest as it covers much shenanigans of many dodgy blokes.
|
|
|
Post by wyvern on Mar 27, 2019 4:21:47 GMT
Duncan Head, Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars, has a picture of a Campanian Hoplite. He is in essence an Oscan with hoplite armour. You could easil build him in 28mm with Victrix Samnites and Greeks mixed. Something would also be possible with 15mm. Like already told, the Marmetines were Campanians. In the end, this is all conjectural. Who can say, what was stronger in Syracuse: the italian or the greek influence? BTW wonderful campaign. We will play a weekend campaign "Rise of Macedonian 350 BC" with DBA in two month. I really like DBA with greek armies. Less stone/scissor/paper, more position game. Thanks, for the advice! I figured much of this would be down to personal interpretation. Good luck with your campaign, hope you have fun! Cheers, Paul.
|
|