Post by stevie on Feb 19, 2019 14:11:56 GMT
I agree with Greedo-Chris, Paddy, and Jim about replicating historical battles.
Historical battles
After all, how do we know that Agincourt, Hastings, the infamous Cannae, or any other historical battle was a foregone conclusion?
The best we can do is have the right rules so that when the right elements are in the right positions the historical outcome is the
most likely, although luck undoubtedly has a big effect. And move elements about then all bets are off and anything could happen.
But when you have the right elements in the right position, and the historical outcome is the least likely result, something is wrong.
It may seem that I am obsessed with Cannae, but I’m only using it as the very best well documented example of 4Ax fighting Bd.
Cannae is in fact just the tip of a very big iceberg...get this one wrong then all 4Ax battles will be wrong.
And there is nothing ‘magical’ or ‘special’ about Cannae...it’s just a delay in the centre to buy time for the wings to win the battle.
Hannibal tried it at the River Trebia in 218 BC...but the centre didn’t hold and some Blades broke through.
Scipio used it against Carthage at Ilipa in 206 BC...but used his legionaries to do the envelopment on the wings.
Scipio did a similar thing at Zama in 202 BC...but lost control of his pursuing mounted who chased off and took hours to come back.
Even Agricola used it at Mons Graupius in 84 AD...after his cavalry chased off the chariots, his horse attacked the Caledonian flanks.
Comparing Joe’s recoil with 4Ax +1
This is very tricky, because luck has such a big effect.
Basically, Joe’s method has Hannibal losing one or two 4Ax in the Roman bound, none in the Carthage bound (because they have
all, hopefully, evaded out of contact), then losing another one or two in the next Roman bound.
The 4Ax +1 method has Hannibal losing zero or one in the Roman bound, zero or one in the Carthage bound (as the Blades pursue
and are still in contact), and zero or one in the next Roman bound.
In both cases Hannibal may be able to buy an extra bound by having Psiloi skirmishers out in front to delay the Blades.
Overall I think the 4Ax +1 method has a better survival rate, although the Ax will fight in both sides bounds.
But one thing Joe’s recoil does not do
It does not give 4Ax any ‘punch’.
As I’ve said before, because mathematically a CF of 3 is no danger at all to a CF of 5, the Romans don’t need reserves.
This dramatically distorts the deployment at Cannae and at every single other 4Ax v Bd engagement.
With no fear of being doubled, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for the Romans to waste elements in reserve.
So they are free to place their Triarii on the wings, where their spears will have the greatest effect against Hannibal’s mounted.
And thus the battle looks nothing like the historical encounter and has a completely different outcome.
4Ax need a slight ‘punch’, at least a chance of doubling the Blades, so that the Romans will keep something in reserve.
The 4Ax +1 v heavy foot does this, if only in a small way.
It is also necessary to be able to fulfil the following quotes from Duncan Head:-
“They did not despair if things went badly, but fought doggedly on...Their initial charge was often powerful enough to break even
a Roman line; if held, Roman discipline and armour would usually beat them”.
Samnite quotes from “Macedonian and Punic Wars” by Duncan Head, page 62 and page 143 of the 1982 and 2016 editions:-
“The Romans believed the first Samnite attack was the most dangerous, and after a while their spirits would flag”.
“They would usually charge fiercely and fight in close quarters, where the Romans seem to had a slight edge, but Samnite troops
worsted them more than once”.
None of the above is possible with a CF of 3...but it is just possible with a CF of 4.
This is why Cannae is such a good barometer and indicator of how 4Ax should fight Blades, in all battles of all periods.
Italian 4Ax on the Roman side at Cannae
We know that full Roman legions would be Blades, as would Latin allied legions of this period.
There may well have been some Italian unreformed allies fighting for Rome that day, but neither Polybius nor Livy mentions them.
Joe likes to have several 4Ax on the Roman side...and he may well be right. But I think this is a bit of a cop-out.
It effectively acknowledges that Hannibal’s 4Ax are crap, so to play balance things give the Romans some crap too.
This is hardly the best way of fixing the 4Ax weakness problem...
Historical battles
After all, how do we know that Agincourt, Hastings, the infamous Cannae, or any other historical battle was a foregone conclusion?
The best we can do is have the right rules so that when the right elements are in the right positions the historical outcome is the
most likely, although luck undoubtedly has a big effect. And move elements about then all bets are off and anything could happen.
But when you have the right elements in the right position, and the historical outcome is the least likely result, something is wrong.
It may seem that I am obsessed with Cannae, but I’m only using it as the very best well documented example of 4Ax fighting Bd.
Cannae is in fact just the tip of a very big iceberg...get this one wrong then all 4Ax battles will be wrong.
And there is nothing ‘magical’ or ‘special’ about Cannae...it’s just a delay in the centre to buy time for the wings to win the battle.
Hannibal tried it at the River Trebia in 218 BC...but the centre didn’t hold and some Blades broke through.
Scipio used it against Carthage at Ilipa in 206 BC...but used his legionaries to do the envelopment on the wings.
Scipio did a similar thing at Zama in 202 BC...but lost control of his pursuing mounted who chased off and took hours to come back.
Even Agricola used it at Mons Graupius in 84 AD...after his cavalry chased off the chariots, his horse attacked the Caledonian flanks.
Comparing Joe’s recoil with 4Ax +1
This is very tricky, because luck has such a big effect.
Basically, Joe’s method has Hannibal losing one or two 4Ax in the Roman bound, none in the Carthage bound (because they have
all, hopefully, evaded out of contact), then losing another one or two in the next Roman bound.
The 4Ax +1 method has Hannibal losing zero or one in the Roman bound, zero or one in the Carthage bound (as the Blades pursue
and are still in contact), and zero or one in the next Roman bound.
In both cases Hannibal may be able to buy an extra bound by having Psiloi skirmishers out in front to delay the Blades.
Overall I think the 4Ax +1 method has a better survival rate, although the Ax will fight in both sides bounds.
But one thing Joe’s recoil does not do
It does not give 4Ax any ‘punch’.
As I’ve said before, because mathematically a CF of 3 is no danger at all to a CF of 5, the Romans don’t need reserves.
This dramatically distorts the deployment at Cannae and at every single other 4Ax v Bd engagement.
With no fear of being doubled, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for the Romans to waste elements in reserve.
So they are free to place their Triarii on the wings, where their spears will have the greatest effect against Hannibal’s mounted.
And thus the battle looks nothing like the historical encounter and has a completely different outcome.
4Ax need a slight ‘punch’, at least a chance of doubling the Blades, so that the Romans will keep something in reserve.
The 4Ax +1 v heavy foot does this, if only in a small way.
It is also necessary to be able to fulfil the following quotes from Duncan Head:-
Spanish Iberian quotes from “Macedonian and Punic Wars” by Duncan Head, page 56 and page 131 of the 1982 and 2016 editions:-
“They did not despair if things went badly, but fought doggedly on...Their initial charge was often powerful enough to break even
a Roman line; if held, Roman discipline and armour would usually beat them”.
Samnite quotes from “Macedonian and Punic Wars” by Duncan Head, page 62 and page 143 of the 1982 and 2016 editions:-
“The Romans believed the first Samnite attack was the most dangerous, and after a while their spirits would flag”.
“They would usually charge fiercely and fight in close quarters, where the Romans seem to had a slight edge, but Samnite troops
worsted them more than once”.
This is why Cannae is such a good barometer and indicator of how 4Ax should fight Blades, in all battles of all periods.
Italian 4Ax on the Roman side at Cannae
We know that full Roman legions would be Blades, as would Latin allied legions of this period.
There may well have been some Italian unreformed allies fighting for Rome that day, but neither Polybius nor Livy mentions them.
Joe likes to have several 4Ax on the Roman side...and he may well be right. But I think this is a bit of a cop-out.
It effectively acknowledges that Hannibal’s 4Ax are crap, so to play balance things give the Romans some crap too.
This is hardly the best way of fixing the 4Ax weakness problem...