The 3/4Ax debate Feb 14, 2019 17:23:47 GMT
Post by stevie on Feb 14, 2019 17:23:47 GMT
What, the the most famous battle in ancient history? And DBA can’t re-create it? Then how can it re-create ANY battle?
It’s not as if we were lacking information. Just type "Cannae" into Google...
It is a simple model originally based on Wb vs Bd warfare, and then expanded to cover many other periods and troop types. We can bend and twist the dang thing in knots, but at some point, the model simply may not be able to do what you want it to do.
How about we try. That’s right, do something that has never been done before in DBA and just try?
Or shall we simply shrug our shoulders and carry on pretending that everything is fine?
As to Cannae, how many other, more complicated rules sets are able to recreate Cannae accurately? If it was hard for Hannibal to pull off, image how hard it is to "naturally" make it happen in a wargame, WITHOUT simultaneously messing up other battles in other periods where something totally different happened.
The other battles in other periods are already messed-up in DBA...that's why it needs fixing.
See the the quotes from Duncan Head concerning the Iberians, Samnites, Illyrians, Thracians, Greek Thureophoroi, etc.
To say that factors outside of the actual battle itself should not affect the outcome flies in the face of Sun Tzu. If the two Roman commanders were having problems, it may well have a systematic effect on how the troops are deployed, commanded, morale etc. And what's more, if Hannibal KNEW and encouraged the Roman problems, that too will affect how he deployed,
Ah yes...”IF”...let’s use every excuse we can to do nothing.
and strategized, but without super complicated "cunning ploys" rules or "external factors" rules, we cannot model this in a model as simple as DBA without changing DBA into something it was never intended to be. That's where "extenuating circumstances" rules for particular battles I don't think are a bad idea.
I'm not saying Ax vs heavy foot shouldn't be changed in DBA (and the full BW impetuous 4Bd idea is also really interesting), but if we are focused so intensely on making sure that Cannae "works", we might end up with a system that doesn't work anywhere else for variety of complicated interactive reasons.
“DBA 2.2 can’t properly reproduce Hoplite battles”...oh, it can now in DBA 3.0 with side-support...
“DBA 2.2 can’t properly reproduce Hundred Years War battles”...oh, it can now in DBA 3.0 with side-support...
“DBA 2.2 has Light Horse too weak to properly reproduce battles”...oh, it can now in DBA 3.0 with rear-support...
“DBA 2.2 has Psiloi behind instead of out in front”...oh, they are now in DBA 3.0 by ignoring corner-to-corner overlaps...
“DBA 3.0 can’t reproduce Cannae properly”...who knows, maybe one day it will...
As to Polybius, this thread has gotten me to go out and buy a book about him and his Histories. I'm not brave enough to read the actual histories *yet* (Polybius' Histories by Brian C. McGing), so that's a start. Thanks for that!
Here’s a start (and it’s free!): ---> see penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Polybius/3*.html
The Battle of Cannae is in sections 113 to 117 near the end.