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Post by timurilank on Jan 24, 2019 9:06:01 GMT
We are planning more battles with pike armies and while investigating Ptolomaic history found there were several periods of civil unrest with usurpers seizing control over Upper Egypt; these events would be covered in the II/20b 274 – 167 BC list.
A query to the collective.
As II/20b is not listed as an enemy of itself, were the rebellions in Upper Egypt led by usurpers supported by the armies of Kush (I/58)?
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Post by paulhannah on Jan 24, 2019 15:06:49 GMT
I'm no Egyptologist, so I can't speak to your specific question, "Timurilank". At the risk of hijacking your thread (oh, no!), I would ask a related question, however.
What figure-range did you / would you use for I/58 Meroitic Kushites if you don't go the civil war route? The old "Feudal Castings" range of Auxumites, perhaps? (Unfortunately, no Jumbo in that range.)
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Post by timurilank on Jan 24, 2019 16:57:54 GMT
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Post by stevie on Jan 24, 2019 21:53:26 GMT
Now this one is a challenge, as there is so little information about this conflict. All I can find has been summarized as follows:- The decline of Ptolemaic Egypt began with Ptolemy IV Philopator (ruled 221-204 BC). Ancient Egypt under the Pharaohs had a distinct warrior caste, which the early Ptolemies wisely didn’t use or arm. However, in order to face the Seleucid invasion that led to the battle of Raphia in 217 BC, native Egyptians were called upon. This led to a rekindling of Egyptian nationalism and Upper Egypt rebelled and broke away for nearly 20 years under the Nubian Pharaoh Hamachis (or Hyrgronaphor) 205 to 199 BC, and his successor Ankmarchis (or Channophris) 199 to 185 BC. The Lower Egypt legitimate successor to Ptolemy IV, his son Ptolemy V Epiphanes (ruled 204-181 BC), finally suppressed the rebellion in the south with great cruelty and treachery, massacring captured prisoners. Lower and Upper Egypt were eventually reunited in 185 BC when Ptolemaic general Conanus captured the rebel Pharaoh Ankmarchis. As for what this rebel army actually looked like..that is anybody’s guess. Being a nationalistic uprising I suspect it would be more traditional and Egyptian looking rather than Macedonian Successor. Certainly the southern Upper Kingdom would have very little if any access to the usual Hellenistic mercenaries of the time. Small piecemeal bands would be blocked by the northern Lower Kingdom from travelling south down the only route, the Nile Valley. Perhaps army I/58 Meroitic Kushites is the best solution... ...with maybe compulsory allies from army II/20b representing dissident officers from the legitimate army? Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by stevie on Jan 24, 2019 23:52:17 GMT
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Post by timurilank on Jan 25, 2019 8:48:35 GMT
Now this one is a challenge, as there is so little information about this conflict. All I can find has been summarized as follows:- The decline of Ptolemaic Egypt began with Ptolemy IV Philopator (ruled 221-204 BC). Ancient Egypt under the Pharaohs had a distinct warrior caste, which the early Ptolemies wisely didn’t use or arm. However, in order to face the Seleucid invasion that led to the battle of Raphia in 217 BC, native Egyptians were called upon. This led to a rekindling of Egyptian nationalism and Upper Egypt rebelled and broke away for nearly 20 years under the Nubian Pharaoh Hamachis (or Hyrgronaphor) 205 to 199 BC, and his successor Ankmarchis (or Channophris) 199 to 185 BC. The Lower Egypt legitimate successor to Ptolemy IV, his son Ptolemy V Epiphanes (ruled 204-181 BC), finally suppressed the rebellion in the south with great cruelty and treachery, massacring captured prisoners. Lower and Upper Egypt were eventually reunited in 185 BC when Ptolemaic general Conanus captured the rebel Pharaoh Ankmarchis. As for what this rebel army actually looked like..that is anybody’s guess. Being a nationalistic uprising I suspect it would be more traditional and Egyptian looking rather than Macedonian Successor. Certainly the southern Upper Kingdom would have very little if any access to the usual Hellenistic mercenaries of the time. Small piecemeal bands would be blocked by the northern Lower Kingdom from travelling south down the only route, the Nile Valley. Perhaps army I/58 Meroitic Kushites is the best solution... ...with maybe compulsory allies from army II/20b representing dissident officers from the legitimate army? Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
, Thanks for the comments. This subject came about while looking at the various pike armies and their opponents following the death of Alexander. The Meroitic Kushite vs. Ptolemaic Egypt were placed on the list and then noted the ‘rebellion’ period. I would not think ‘Macedonian’ or Greek mercenaries would be present among the frontier posts, but be stationed in Thebes at the time of the rebellion. Given that there is little written, these troops may have moved to the safety of Lower Egypt. |
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Post by timurilank on Jan 25, 2019 12:06:36 GMT
Those are excellent sources and indeed the last one listed is a gem. I am surprised that none made reference to Laszlo Torok, Between Two Worlds, The Frontier Region Between Ancient Nubia and Egypt, 3700 BC – 500 AD. The period of revolt is covered in chapter 14 documenting the actions taken by three Ptolemys (IV, V, VI). About a possible army list for the Egyptian Revolt, this was instigated by the priests of Thebes (Ankh-Wen-hofer) and with immediate access to the taxes and possibly the treasury of Upper Egypt it might be tempting to think that mercenary troops occupying the various garrison post could change employment. Either way, Meroitic Kushites did support the rebellion with troops, so there is an ‘allied’ contingent present. If Ankh-wen-hofer actually led troops to battle it may be interesting to give him the CP option (carried in a in litter). epdf.tips/between-two-worlds-the-frontier-region-between-ancient-nubia-and-egypt-3700-bc-5.html |
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Post by goragrad on Jan 27, 2019 9:51:59 GMT
Dank/Thanks for the links gentlemen.
Always nice to extend the reading list (and fill up my hard drive...).
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aristonicus
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Post by aristonicus on Feb 19, 2019 7:45:07 GMT
Ditto, goragrad - Excellent links in this thread. My contribution: During my researches I have noted that there were a couple of other revolts that the Ptolemies had to deal with. In 245 BC Ptolemy III had to cut short his invasion of Seleucid Syria and Babylon and return to Egypt to supress one. "Justin [27.1] L On the death of Antiochus, king of Syria, his son Seleucus, succeeding in his stead, commenced his reign with murder in his own family, his mother Laodice, who ought to have restrained him, encouraging him to it. 2 He put to death his step-mother Berenice, the sister of Ptolemy, king of Egypt, together with his little brother, her son. 3 By perpetrating this cruelty, he both incurred the stain of infamy, and involved himself in a war with Ptolemy. 4 As for Berenice, when she heard that assassins were sent to despatch her, she shut herself up in Daphne; 5 and it being reported throughout the cities of Asia, that she and her little son were besieged there, they all, commiserating her undeserved misfortunes from their recollection of the high character of her father and her ancestors; sent her assistance. 6 Her brother Ptolemy, too, alarmed at the danger of his sister, left his kingdom, and hastened to her support with all his forces. 7 But Berenice, before succour could arrive, was surprised by treachery, as she could not be taken by force, and killed. 8 The deed was regarded by every one as an atrocity; and all the cities, in consequence, which had revolted (after having equipped a vast fleet), being suddenly alarmed at this instance of cruelty, and wishing to take revenge for her whom they had meant to defend, gave themselves up to Ptolemy, 9 who, if he had not been recalled to Egypt by disturbances at home, would have made himself master of all Seleucus's dominions. 10 Such hatred did an unnatural crime bring upon Seleucus; or so much good feeling did the death of a sister, dishonourably killed, excite in behalf of Ptolemy!" There was another one in about 132-130 BC under the rebel Pharaoh Harsiesi en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harsiesi |
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aristonicus
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Post by aristonicus on Feb 19, 2019 7:59:49 GMT
A quick list based on the Saitic Egyptian one:
I/53b Egyptian Rebel Army 205-130 BC: 1 x General on horseback (Cv) or carried in a litter(Lit), 1 x Egyptian light horse (LH), 6 x rebel foot (4Pk), 2 x machimoi or garrison deserters (3Ax), 2 x Levy archers (3/4Bw) or Nubian archers (Ps)
Terrain Type: Littoral. Aggression: 1. Enemies: II/20b, II/20c. Allies: I/58
Comments or corrections appreciated.
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Post by timurilank on Feb 19, 2019 16:26:57 GMT
I like the list and would like to comment on the following.
From the sources listed above, we have the impression Ptolemy held control over the Nile, ergo, the principle garrisons were still under royal control. That is not to say a good number of its Egyptian native troops remained.
I could be wrong, but I had the impression, the Egyptian phalanx were ‘officered’ by Greek file leaders who might be less inclined to join the rebellion. If so, then the six pike might be better expressed as 6 x Egyptian rebels (4Pk or Sp or 4Ax) to give players a greater mix of troop types.
I do miss a ‘rioting mob’ (5Hd or 7Hd). These would represent the farmers from temple lands led by their Egyptian priests.
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aristonicus
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The man from Lucania returns..
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Post by aristonicus on Feb 20, 2019 7:06:46 GMT
Yes, good point. So:
1 x General on horseback (Cv) or in litter (Lit)
1 x Egyptian Light Horse (LH)
6 x Egyptian Rebels (4Pk or Sp or 4Ax)
2 x Egyptian Machimoi (4Ax) or Temple farmer Levy (7Hd)
2 x Egyptian levy archers (3/4Bw) or Egyptian & Nubian skirmishing archers (Ps)
Machimoi would be regulars so 4Ax not 3Ax, as I had before.
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Post by timurilank on Feb 21, 2019 16:32:15 GMT
Yes, good point. So: 1 x General on horseback (Cv) or in litter (Lit) 1 x Egyptian Light Horse (LH) 6 x Egyptian Rebels (4Pk or Sp or 4Ax) 2 x Egyptian Machimoi (4Ax) or Temple farmer Levy (7Hd) 2 x Egyptian levy archers (3/4Bw) or Egyptian & Nubian skirmishing archers (Ps) Machimoi would be regulars so 4Ax not 3Ax, as I had before. This looks good and is a conflict that I would try later.
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aristonicus
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The man from Lucania returns..
Posts: 25
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Post by aristonicus on Mar 16, 2021 12:39:33 GMT
I was just on the S.O.A. forum and noticed a thread on the Egyptian Great Revolt. Some details from Jim Webster:
- Rebel slingers are mentioned in a papyrus
- Egyptian soldiers of the Ptolemies are confirmed to have taken part in the revolt as some were recorded as being pardoned later.
- Apparently the peasantry used to 'desert the land and hole up in a temple as a way of protesting against high rents, or whatever.
- There are records of officials worried about Egyptian soldiers 'just disappearing'
- There were at least two pitched battles. One where the first rebel pharaoh Haronnophris was defeated probably in about 197 BC. There was another battle against Chaonnophris about 185BC where he stood and fought alongside Nubian allies.
Jim suggests that Ptolemaic soldiers were normally equipped with spears and/or Javelins and were only issued pikes for major campaigns.
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aristonicus
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The man from Lucania returns..
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Post by aristonicus on May 4, 2021 8:18:15 GMT
Ok, so I have received the latest Slingshot # 335 March/April 2021 and read with great interest Jim Websters' article on the The Great Revolt of the Egyptians. Here are my suggestions for the DBA army for the revolt.
1 x General in a Litter (Lit) on foot (4Ax) or horseback (Cv) - Jim considers it unlikely that they were mounted as the rebel leaders were captured or killed when defeated which at least suggests they couldn't flee as fast as a mounted general
6 x Rebel 'regular' foot (4Ax) or (4Pk) - Jim says that half the force should be 'regular' foot and a mixture of Pike and Auxilia (DBMM classification Reg Pk(I) and Reg Ax(O))
5 x Conscripted peasantry (3Ax) or (Ps) - DBMM classifications Irr Ax(I) and Irr Ps(I) so ill trained and poorly equipped with sharp sticks, rocks and harsh language. Some Ps could be slingers Ps(O) so a bit more useful.
Meriotic Kushite allies - up to 1/3 in DBMM
Now, about their opponents. Jim in the article and in his book review of Paul Johstono, The Army of Ptolemaic Egypt 323-204 BC suggests that the destruction of Ptolemaic army at the battle of Panion in 200 BC fundamentally changed the structure of that army in that the triakontarouroi Makedones who formed the phalanx were wiped out. They were replaced by mercenaries and professional soldiers equipped as thureophoroi, thorakitai and Galatians(!). The later being a pseudo-ethnicity (in fact it seems that all that ethnicity business was dropped and anyone could join any unit e.g. 4 out of 5 'Galatians' in an inscription having Greek names) equipped with a short sword and a heavy all-iron spear called a 'gaison'. Jim suggests Reg Bd(O) for this type and that post-200 BC all phalanx be replaced with 1/3 Galatians and 2/3 thureophoroi though he admits that there was probably effectively no difference in the way that they fought given the similarity to thureophoroi equipment except for the HTW.
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