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Post by martin on Sept 20, 2018 18:07:04 GMT
This may have been covered before but :-
Can 3Pk support 4Pk (or vice versa), and
Can 3Wb support 4Wb (or vice versa) ?
Think we’ve read the rules and come to a conclusion, but would rather the powers-that-be enlightened us, please.
Martin
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Post by bob on Sept 20, 2018 19:02:54 GMT
I do not claim to be any sort of power. Given the detailed restrictions for rear support, that do not include element class (S or F) Then class does not matter. Likewise the explicit including of class Restriction for side support Confirms that it’s not relevant to rear support.
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Post by Simon on Sept 20, 2018 19:12:10 GMT
I seem to recall one of the Chinese armies lists (Nao?) where it expressly says that 3 Pk can't support 4Pk (or may have been other way round). From this I would infer that this is an exception and so generally 3/4 Pk can support each other. Don't have the lists to hand so can't check right now.
Simon
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Post by lkmjbc on Sept 20, 2018 19:17:21 GMT
This may have been covered before but :- Can 3Pk support 4Pk (or vice versa), and Can 3Wb support 4Wb (or vice versa) ? Think we’ve read the rules and come to a conclusion, but would rather the powers-that-be enlightened us, please. Martin "Rear support factors:
These apply when elements have another friendly element of the same type lined-up directly behind them and facing the
same direction, and both are in good going.
Pikes add +3 and Warband +1 when in frontal close combat against enemy foot other than Psiloi.
Pikes add +1 when in frontal close combat against Knights, Elephants or Scythed Chariots."
Seems clear.
Joe Collins
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Post by paulisper on Sept 20, 2018 20:09:13 GMT
I seem to recall one of the Chinese armies lists (Nao?) where it expressly says that 3 Pk can't support 4Pk (or may have been other way round). From this I would infer that this is an exception and so generally 3/4 Pk can support each other. Don't have the lists to hand so can't check right now. Simon The army you refer to is III/36 Nan-Chao & Ta-Li and only guards (4Pk) can support guards... P. |
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Post by scottrussell on Sept 20, 2018 20:24:05 GMT
I seem to recall one of the Chinese armies lists (Nao?) where it expressly says that 3 Pk can't support 4Pk (or may have been other way round). From this I would infer that this is an exception and so generally 3/4 Pk can support each other. Don't have the lists to hand so can't check right now. Simon The army you refer to is III/36 Nan-Chao & Ta-Li and only guards (4Pk) can support guards... P. And relevant to the discussion is that guard are the only 4Pk in the army and "Spearmen" are the only 3Pk, so the implication is that the guards only supporting guards is an exception, and that normally 3Pk could support 4Pk and vice-versa. Which is contrary to my expectations, I must admit. Scott |
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Post by martin on Sept 20, 2018 20:26:23 GMT
Confusion started when we looked at the Basing section, which listed 'troop types' separately, eg 4Pk, 3Pk. Made us think maybe this made them different 'types' and so unable to support.
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Post by menacussecundus on Sept 20, 2018 20:31:03 GMT
I seem to recall one of the Chinese armies lists (Nao?) where it expressly says that 3 Pk can't support 4Pk (or may have been other way round). From this I would infer that this is an exception and so generally 3/4 Pk can support each other. Don't have the lists to hand so can't check right now. Simon The army you refer to is III/36 Nan-Chao & Ta-Li and only guards (4Pk) can support guards... P. But, since it doesn't say "guards can only support guards", presumably they could support the 3Pk Spearmen in this army. |
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Post by lkmjbc on Sept 20, 2018 21:33:32 GMT
Confusion started when we looked at the Basing section, which listed 'troop types' separately, eg 4Pk, 3Pk. Made us think maybe this made them different 'types' and so unable to support. Ok... gotcha...
Types are defined as Pk, Wb, Bw, Kn... et al.
So 3Pk can support 4Pk and such.
Joe Collins
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Post by martin on Sept 21, 2018 8:26:28 GMT
Thanks Joe.
Appreciated. 👍🏼
Martin
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Post by medievalthomas on Sept 21, 2018 14:43:52 GMT
It depends on whether you feel Fast/not-Fast are different types or just variants of the same type (and whether Phil meant to use the word "type" as a specific game term or just a general term in the rear support rule).
He probably did not intend Fast Pike to be able to support "normal" Pike but for rule purposes its seems that they do.
TomT
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Post by scottrussell on Sept 21, 2018 16:01:18 GMT
My ultra long term memory (which is better than my short term memory) tells me that PB did once contribute to a similar discussion in version 2.2. He said something like"of course 3Wb can support 4Wb, they are both warband, you total cretin" (I might be paraphrasing him a bit here, but this was the spirit of the thing). However at that time 4Wb were just 3Wb with an extra figure on the base, now the two are actually different in the way they function, so perhaps we should hesitate to draw conclusions.
Scott
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Post by bob on Sept 22, 2018 7:12:35 GMT
Phil differentiates between types such as war band, pikes, bows, etc. and between classes such as fast and solid.
“Where more than one basing option exists, this usually differentiates troops of the same type who fought slightly differently, such as those classed as “Fast” or “Solid” and/ or those who used unusually deep formations.”
Rear support conditions relate only to type not class.
“These apply when elements have another friendly element of the same type lined-up directly behind them and facing the same direction, and both are in good going”
I see no reason to doubt that he knew what he was doing. And that members of the development team believed they knew what he was doing :-)
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Post by pawsbill on Sept 28, 2018 15:55:38 GMT
This may have been covered before but :- Can 3Pk support 4Pk (or vice versa), and Can 3Wb support 4Wb (or vice versa) ? Think we’ve read the rules and come to a conclusion, but would rather the powers-that-be enlightened us, please. Martin Yes, they can, except for the Nan-Chao where the notes specify that only Guard (4Pk) can provide rear support for Guard. So on that list only, 4Pk can support 3Pk but 3Pk cannot support 4Pk.
Therefore, the 3Pk in some of the Book 2 Korean lists can provide rear support to any 4Pk in the same army. 
The reason that the nan-Chao is the only exception is that it was the only list spotted to have both Solid and Fast pike when this question came up during V3.0 development. The view was that Wb of different grades should be able to rear support (there are plenty of cases where the General is 4Wb but all of the other warrior elements are 3Wb) but Pk of different grades should not. As we only spotted the one army with mixed Pike at that time, Phil thought it would be easier to just add an exception into the notes for that list rather than add a general rule.
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Post by twrnz on Sept 29, 2018 2:46:53 GMT
...He probably did not intend Fast Pike to be able to support "normal" Pike but for rule purposes its seems that they do. TomT I actually recall asking Phil this question in the development process. He didn’t see the need to add additional rules as only a few armies would have a mix. Which as others have pointed out 3Pk can support 4Pk etc. |
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