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Post by j2klbs on Aug 20, 2018 4:47:28 GMT
Hi all,
Since there are 3 figures on 3Kn and 3Cv, and they can often be equipped similarly, I'm curious if there is a standard modeling approach that people use to differentiate Cavalry from Knights.
Thanks!
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Post by timurilank on Aug 20, 2018 5:59:25 GMT
Hi all, Since there are 3 figures on 3Kn and 3Cv, and they can often be equipped similarly, I'm curious if there is a standard modeling approach that people use to differentiate Cavalry from Knights. Thanks! j2klbs, There are a number of possibilities to differ Kn from Cv, decorative shield patterns vs. solid colour, coloured horse harness and saddle cloths vs. plain leather, darker coloured horse vs. lighter brown. The late Dark Age or feudal period knights could have banners to set them apart from standard cavalry; mine are fixed to the base and not to the figure.
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Post by felixs on Aug 20, 2018 7:58:34 GMT
You could also model them in different formations: Knights could be more solid, forward charging; while Cavalry could be in a looser order, riding in slightly different angles etc.
Other than that, it depends on the army in question. Sometimes Cv and Kn in the same army represent different interpretations of the same troops. Sometimes they are different in some way, which could show in more lavish colours etc, as Timurilank suggested.
In some cases, similarly equipped figures in different poses are an option. If you have a choice, I would use figures holding bows for Cv, not for Kn. Kn would get more lances etc.
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Post by davidjconstable on Aug 20, 2018 8:03:20 GMT
I have not seen an army where the 3Kn and 3Cv were not different, however that does not mean there are not some. Timurilank is correct about banners. If you do come across one where they are the same, and the 3Kn are not the General (so a banner will do) I would be interested to know.
David Constable
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Post by martin on Aug 20, 2018 8:56:31 GMT
Any distinguishing feature, as mentioned by others... EG in my Norman army, the knights / milites have vertical lances, occasional pennons and relatively staid horse poses, and the Breton Cv are faster galloping figures throwing javelins. Both have mail and teardrop shields, so might otherwise be hard to differentiate between them.
M
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Post by stevie on Aug 20, 2018 10:05:24 GMT
This is an interesting subject. Figures with cloaks works well for Hellenistic-Macedonian 3Kn, with uncloaked mounted figures for the ordinary Cv. But I myself am incredibly lazy when it comes to painting and basing, and am notorious for misusing figures, for example:- I/36d Italian Hill Tribes (1000 BC - 290 BC): 10 x 3Ax/3Wb (using Oscan-Samnite figures) I/36b Sardinians (700 BC - 124 BC): 8 x 3Ax ---> I/28 Sea Peoples (1208 BC - 1176 BC): 6 x 3Bd (both using horn helmeted figures) I even use 2 x 4Wb to represent 2 x 4Ax when my II/33 Polybian Romans (275 BC - 105 BC) are fighting the II/11 Gauls (400 BC - 50 BC). And of course there are the ‘Imitation Legionaries’ (Romans without helmet plumes) that pop up in various eastern armies. (Also useful for telling the legionaries apart when fighting Roman civil wars) My generic 'barbarians' are 4Wb made up of a mixture of Gauls/Britons/Germans (sod painting two armies when one will do for both!) Here are some armies with interchangeable 3Kn-Cv Generals:- I/43b Skythians or Early Hu (400 BC -70 AD): 2 x 3Kn or Cv I/48 Thracians (700 BC - 46 AD): 1 x 3Kn or Cv I/56b Late Kyreneans (313 BC - 74 BC): 1 x 3Kn or Cv II/6 Bithynians (435 BC - 74 BC): 1 x 3Kn or Cv II/7 Later Persians (420 BC - 329 BC) 1 x 3Kn or Cv II/18e Antigonos Gonatas (277 BC - 260 BC): 1 x 3Kn or Cv II/20d Ptolemaic (53 BC - 30 BC): 1 x 3Kn or Cv II/22a Nabataeans (250 BC - 106 AD): 1 x 3Kn or Cv II/25 Bosporans (310 BC - 375 AD): 1 x 3Kn or Cv II/27b Pyrrhus (280 BC - 272 BC): 1 x 3Kn or Cv II/81a Sub-Roman British (407 AD - 470 AD): 1 x 3Kn or Cv (I just paint these up as 3Kn, and tell my opponent if they are being used as Cv or not)And here are some non-General 3Kn-Cv elements:- II/14 Kappadokians (330 BC - 17 AD): 1 x 3Kn or Cv nobles II/20c Ptolemaic (166 BC - 54 BC): 1 x 3Kn or Cv mercenaries II/24 Early Rhoxolani (310 BC - 100 AD): 3 x 3Kn or Cv nobles II/34 Pergamon (263 BC - 129 BC): 2 x 3Kn or Cv lancers/Galatians II/47 Early Germans (115 BC - 250 AD): 2 x 3Kn if Suevi, 2 x Cv if other Germans II/82a West Patrician Rome (408 AD - 493 AD): 3 x 3Kn or Cv foederati/equites ...and this is only from Book II...I gave up searching before I reached Book III. Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients, and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by bob on Aug 20, 2018 11:34:51 GMT
I too put the knights in a more linear formation, with cavalry more askew. Cavalry are typically throwing javelins, knights Have an upright spear or Lance.Just to be more sure however, I put a red dot on the rear corner of knights.
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Post by goragrad on Aug 20, 2018 12:09:29 GMT
Great minds stevie...
My Skyths and various others have mounted elements that swing both ways depending on which sub list is being fielded.
Unless both KN and CV are present in the same army there is often no real difference in the appearance of the miniatures. Essex for example includes their 'Breton' mailed figure with a kite shield as part of their Norman army's KN mix to add variety while also putting it in their Breton army pack as CV.
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Post by jeffreythancock on Aug 21, 2018 0:34:53 GMT
If there is any doubt when playing a game, I find it "sporting" to point out to your opponent at the beginning which stands are 3Cv and which are 3Kn and describe any difference in appearance. I even remind them as the game proceeds, so there is no confusion during the game.
The same could be said for 3Ax, 3Pk, and 3Wb. Like others, I use the same figures for Welsh early 3Wb and later 3Pk.
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Post by medievalthomas on Aug 21, 2018 18:11:12 GMT
Since we use an even wider variety of Knight types this issue does come up a bit. Generally: No Barding but Lance & Mail - Fast Knight; Barding Lance/mail/some plate - Knight; Metal Barding full plate lance: Heavy Knight (counts as Foot v. Distance Shooting).
Besides figure representations (pretty easy to tell apart in 25mm), you can vary base depth. Traditionally in 25mm all Mounted were 40mm deep but now your officially allowed 45mm depth and unofficially 60mm. So you could put Faster/Looser types on deeper bases. I find 45mm about as shallow as modern 25s allow (and besides the Perry Brother's figures come with 60mmX45mm bases included for Mounted).
TomT
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Post by Haardrada on Aug 21, 2018 18:40:16 GMT
I wonder if anyone who has done a III/8 Central Asian Turk or a III/61 Dynastic Kurdish army have had this problem as both can opt for the Kn or Cav option?
I've tackled this issue in different ways with different armies....my Hu,Hsuing nu are Cav anyway so their is no problem and the Southern Hsuing nu is a 3Kn General anyway.
However,in my Ghaznavid and Timurid armies I included an archer in each element to show they are Cav...but I also did them simularly,but with 2 horse archers with my Jurchen as described in their army narative.If using Rajput Knights as an ally for the Ghaznavids it is easily to destinguish the difference as they are from different manufacturers and the Rajput Kn all have lances.
In my Norman army the Lombards are Kn too so I use the other Frankish Medium and Heavy Cavalry as Cav.
In my Grenadine army there is a difference in that I can use the General as either Kn or Cav and will declare which option before a game.
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Post by macbeth on Aug 21, 2018 23:25:44 GMT
I use various ploys - for a lot of my Asian armies - Central Asian City States, Tang Chinese, Khitan Liao, Khazars the Kn have horse armour and the Cv do not
For my Norman army the Breton Cv have some figures throwing Javelins whilst the Norman Kn have all Lances (upright or levelled).
Cheers
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Post by HectorBlackwolf on Aug 22, 2018 16:35:27 GMT
Normally, CV wouldn't have prominent shock weapons, so no lances, etc should distinguish them. Failing that, where possible I give KN horse armor and put CV on unarmored horses. If that isn't possible, you can always just put a post-it on them reading "see them? They're CV"
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Post by macbeth on Aug 22, 2018 22:43:38 GMT
Or you could put something on the banner of the Kn elements. A variation on the slogan of law firms perhaps (One of the ambulance chaser firms here in Oz advertises on late night TV with the tagline "If you don't win, we don't charge" - the Kn could have the line "If we don't charge, you don't win!" ) Cheers
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Post by martin on Aug 23, 2018 12:38:57 GMT
One of the ambulance chaser firms here in Oz advertises on late night TV with the tagline "If you don't win, we don't charge" - the Kn could have the line "If we don't charge, you don't win!" Classic !! 😎 👍 👍 👍 🙈
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