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Post by Haardrada on Aug 8, 2018 17:33:16 GMT
Hi for army list purposes are the Later Zhao armies considered as included in the II/38b Southern Hsuing-nu army list?
If not, do they fit into another list?
Or is the army in a Gray area that fits none of the existing lists?lol
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Post by HectorBlackwolf on Aug 9, 2018 3:07:06 GMT
I'd say a little from column A and a little from column B.
The origin of the Jie is unclear, they might be Xiongnu (themselves a rather vague classification), Turks, or some other Central Asian group.
II/38b matches more or less the region and the time period. The Later Zhao bordered Wu Du and Cheng Han, so Ti and Qiang (Ch'iang) auxiliaries is reasonable. I'm not sure any of these peoples charged hard enough to be classified as KN, CV seems a more plausible to me, but it is not my place to question the wisdom of the army lists.
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Post by Haardrada on Aug 10, 2018 18:33:13 GMT
I did a bit of reading and find the II/38b list is the best fit for the Later Zhao.Shi Le and She Hu were already serving as Xiongnu Generals for the Han Zhao before 319AD...when Shi Le decided to go Independant.Shi Li was of the Jie tribe which is associated with the Yuezhi people,a portion of whome had remained in North East China that were a subject nation of the Xiongnu Confederation.
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Post by HectorBlackwolf on Aug 11, 2018 2:47:31 GMT
The only real issue I see with II/38b is the lack of native Han troops. Given the Later Zhao's location they should have been able to call upon large amounts of Chinese foot. You could solve this with allies, of course.
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Post by Haardrada on Aug 11, 2018 7:23:26 GMT
The only real issue I see with II/38b is the lack of native Han troops. Given the Later Zhao's location they should have been able to call upon large amounts of Chinese foot. You could solve this with allies, of course. Thanks for your input Hectorblackwolf you've encouraged me to look for further info on this army.Shi Les' army while still a vassel of the Han Zhao was considered a "roving army" that raided but initially did not hold territory and in an action in 311AD consisted of mostly cavalry.It is also noted that both Han Zhao and Later Zhao armies could move quickly to defeat Jin armies,but could not hold cities...possibly through lack of infantry?.However, The Yuezhi(Jie)lived in proximity to Ch'iang tribes in Shanxi...which could explain access to allied foot troops. Once Shi Le had declared himself Emperor even though surrounding himself with Jie and Han officials,still used Hsuing nu terms of office calling his designated successor Grand Chanyu.It was noted that the Later Zhao were harsher in their treatment of the Chinese than the Han Zhao..Shi Hu was supposed to have been so cruel that he surpassed Vlad the Impaller! I however can not find any reference to Chinese troops in the Later Zhao army,only that the Later Zhao had fought and eventually traded with the Southern(Eastern Jin) designating the Yellow river as their border. It may be that whoever drew up the lists considered the Han Zhao and Later Zhao to be Hsuing nu warlords to be akin to the other Barbarian states of the 16 Kingdoms that emerged from 304AD that only lasted a generation or so after their formation.
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aristonicus
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Post by aristonicus on Feb 19, 2019 8:35:26 GMT
There must have been numerous Chinese troops in the Later Zhao forces - or what this individual did wouldn't have been possible: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ran_MinYup, the "Hitler of Ancient East Asia" www.allempires.com/Forum/printer_friendly_posts.asp?TID=2188Seems that Shi Min was in command of a force that was sufficiently large that he was able to overthrow the Later Zhao state (and massacre or drive out the non-Han population) before changing his name to Ran Min and founding a new state called Wei (called Ran-Wei in most sources). Judging from those links, the Chinese troops included numerous cavalry. "Ran Min invaded Zhao with 3,000 cavalry and under a night attack destroyed the Xiongnu encampment and killed 30,000 Zhao troops. He followed that by attacking with 5,000 cavalry and destroyed a Zhao cavalry of 70,000 through manoeuvre. The other states are greatly alarmed and the Qiang and Yue Shi allied with the Zhao with a total 300,000 army to attack Ran Min. But Ran Min manage to again rout that army with the 70,000 [sic] cavalry in addition to 40,000 newly recruited troops. The Zhao finally managed to defeat the invading army of Ran Min with the help of Murong Yan state of Xianbei in Manchuria. However this new Zhao kingdom became largely sinicized an under the influence of the Han officials so that the throne was usurped by Liu who in turn submitted to Ran Min. This followed with his army massacring 400,000 white huns in Southern Shang Xi and Hebei and massacred over 320,000 inhabitants in that territory. Creating terror among the other states. Meanwhile in the east Ran Min again destroyed an allied army of over 100,000 of the Tangut and Yue Shi with only 60,000 army. He followed up with an attack on the allies with merely 2,000 newly created Han cavalry corps and further annihilated an army of 70,000 that arrived as reinforcement. The kingdom of Murong Yan was obviously alarmed and under general Murong Ge attacked Ran Min in Hebei with 140,000 soldiers, yet they were utterly defeated by Ran Min in 10 separate battles. Ran Min massacred where ever he went and in all his territories, he have virtually wiped out all of the Hu regimes in central plain with the exception of Xianbei were in too great of number. But his success alarmed the Eastern Jin of south who started to built up army and captured Shang Dong and He Nan. And poised to take Shang Xi and Hebei as well. Ran Min was furious at the Jin's action and declared himself emperor of Wei. But it was a bad time for now he is surrounded on all sides by enemies and his troops have fought years of battle and the resource of his kingdom is mostly depleted with insufficient agricultural basis. Ran Ming therefore raided the inhabitant in the Ding Zhou part of Hebei for supply with only 10,000 infantry. But he was too careless, and the Murong army herd of this and mobilized a large portion of their whole army numbering 200,000 and surrounded the region. The Yan general Murong Ge finally manage to trap Ran Min's 10,000 infantry, and he formed encirclements on Ran min's army and greatly outnumbered his. Although Rang Ming's army is mostly infantry, all of them were highly disciplined troops trained and fought at his side since the beginning. And although Ran Min is a butcher and tyrant he still loved his troops so they would fight with him to the death. For this Murong Ge was repeatedly defeated by Ran Min's infantry since they would just charge in formation at one point of the Yan cavalry always breaking the encirclement. And over ten battles Murong Ge always failed to win. Murong Ge found out that the reason is Ran Min's infantry always goes through the gaps that result in his cavalry encirclement after it got hit by the force of Ran Min's infantry. So he ordered the horses tied together with chains to fill the gaps and also prevent the horses from running away. Next morning, Murong Ge divided his army into 3 divisions and ordered the left and right divisions to ambush on the two flanks. He created a large flag at the front of the central division which is a chained 5,000 elite horse-archers together in a square. Ran Min saw it and led the charge at the Yan army on his horse Zhu Long [Red Dragon] wielding a double bladed lance in his left hand and a halberd with his right. His troops were so amazed and the soldiers were all inspired by Ran Ming's courage and success and all shouted "Wan Sui"(may the emperor live ten thousand years) then Ran Ming charged and broke the scattered the Yan front line cavalry killing 300. When the Wei infantry reached the Yan central division of the Chained cavalry the Wei army couldn't break through and as they had never faced such tactic before were in panic. At this time the Yan cavalry from the two ambushing divisions attacked the flanks of the Wei, the Wei troops broke rank and fled, Ran Min rode his fast horse and manage to escape a far distance but his horse died from overexhaustion and he was captured. Thus the invincible Wei army which had crushed the multiple armies of the north and slaughtered countless nomads was finally brought to an end. When Ran Min was brought to Murong Jun, he was scolded, "You are a submit of Zhao how could you overthrow your emperor and declare yourself an emperor. Ran Min answered without shame "If barbarians like you could become emperor, then why can't a hero of the Middle Kingdom like me become emperor"? Murong Jung was furious and ordered Ran Ming beaten and imprisoned, later the rest of Wei is overran and Ran Min and his son were executed. Ending the Ran Wei and his reign of terror." From discussion on the defunct China History Forum, Ran Min was able to take over most of the army of Later Zhao by simply sending orders to the Chinese generals to attack and wipe out the non-Chinese troops stationed with them.
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Post by Haardrada on Feb 19, 2019 20:48:08 GMT
Great Post Aristonicus, the mixed ethneticity of several of the states during the 16 Kingdom period is confusing as most tried to pass themselves off as legitimately Chinese, but still using Hsuing nu or other native terms of hierachy..i.e. Chanyu. The army of Murong Ge (or Ke) is more easily identifiable as list II/61b. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murong_Ke
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aristonicus
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Post by aristonicus on Feb 20, 2019 7:33:42 GMT
Yes, indeed. Helpfully with the online resources we have today we can make sense of it. One day I hope to do something a bit more comprehensive matching lists to states but until then I will just have to post my thoughts here.
I will comment on the Murong Yan Kingdom army list under that topic.
As to Later Zhao - how about:
II/38c Later Zhao 319-351 AD: 1 x General (Cv or 3Kn), 1 x Cataphracts (4Kn) or Chinese Cavalry (3Kn) or horse archers (LH), 6 x horse archers (LH), 2 x Qiang or Di Tribal infantry (3Ax) or Chinese foot (3Bd or 7Hd), 2 x tribal or levy archers (Ps) Terrain Type: Arable. Aggression: 3. Enemies II/21b, II/38b, II/61b, II/61c, II/79b
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Post by Haardrada on Feb 20, 2019 14:42:32 GMT
Yes, indeed. Helpfully with the online resources we have today we can make sense of it. One day I hope to do something a bit more comprehensive matching lists to states but until then I will just have to post my thoughts here. I will comment on the Murong Yan Kingdom army list under that topic. As to Later Zhao - how about: II/38c Later Zhao 319-351 AD: 1 x General (Cv or 3Kn), 1 x Cataphracts (4Kn) or Chinese Cavalry (3Kn) or horse archers (LH), 6 x horse archers (LH), 2 x Qiang or Di Tribal infantry (3Ax) or Chinese foot (3Bd or 7Hd), 2 x tribal or levy archers (Ps) Terrain Type: Arable. Aggression: 3. Enemies II/21b, II/38b, II/61b, II/61c, II/79b I like your version of the II/38b Southern Hsuing nu list...sources did say that Murong Ke had to lure Ran Mins' army out of the forrest so fast foot are the best option for the infantry...shame the list does not allow 3Bd.
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