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Post by greedo on Jul 2, 2018 17:00:19 GMT
I think, once again, you have managed to miss the entire point of my post, Stevie. With a +1 TF for forming up against HI, 4Ax can indeed stand against HI without just immediately melting away like a small speed bump. As they did historically. Can they win? No. Can they stand up to HI long enough for their comrades to work some magic elsewhere? Hopefully. By adding +1 AND giving them the 1BW, I believe you pretty much force people to choose 4Ax over 3Ax. You are far stronger against HI and can still trap and kill Ps and Cv, winning on ties etc. I strongly caution against using the 1BW recoil for solid troops, unless you are going to give additional compensation to the 3Ax... I'm with primus on this Stevie. In your D. Head posts (which I very much appreciate btw!), I saw lots of references to 3Ax and 2Ps. The Spaniards "initial charge was often powerful enough to break through even a Roman line" tells me that those Spanish should be treated as Wb instead of Ax. 4Ax is harder, but the text still said that they would sit on the sides to bolster the Phallanx etc. Perhaps if you want heavier troops that can move faster, we'd exchange army list mentions of 4Ax for 3Bd, or 3Sp (new element)? That might make it easier. Having both great evasion, higher foot move, no -2 in rough, AND the fighting capacity of a lone Spear element (without it's side support), makes them a no brainer choice over 3Ax, and we're back to nerfing an element over another one.
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Post by greedo on Jul 2, 2018 17:09:51 GMT
I also, wouldn't give 8Bw 1BW recoil. They are most definitely NOT light troops. 3Bw maybe.
It's actually not a bad distinction. You would allow "fast" troops to be able to recoil 1BW. All Solid 1/2BW... But make sure you give the Solid troops something to benefit them.
Then there's the difference between heavy foot and "light" foot. But that might entail broader changes.
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Post by stevie on Jul 2, 2018 18:42:57 GMT
I don't think that anyone is suggesting that 4Bw or 8Bw should be allowed to 'evade' 1 base width, just Ax/3Bw/Ps. The Spaniards "initial charge was often powerful enough to break through even a Roman line" tells me that those Spanish should be treated as Wb instead of Ax. ...or that the Spanish Ax are not powerful enough, so need a bit of a boost. ...but the text still said that they would sit on the sides to bolster the Phallanx etc. Actually, you are missing the word "might":- ...similar troops, such as Thracians and Illyrians, might also be deployed in battle to protect the vulnerable flanks of a phalanx. ...and what about all the references to thureophoroi and other DBA auxiliaries being able to skirmish, just like psiloi? Do we simply ignore it, just because it doesn't fit in with our 21st century thinking, and we today know better than the ancient historians? As I said, from all this I deduce the following:- Ps are light skirmishers, who don’t like getting into hand-to-hand combat (and should allowed to recoil a full base width). 3Ax are peltasts, who can skirmish like Ps or fight hand-to-hand (so should also be allowed to recoil a full base width). 4Ax are regular/veteran/professional 3Ax (better with a +1 against heavy foot, but still allowed to recoil a full base width). Thus 3Ax have a speed advantage, but are weak against Sp/Pk/Bd. And 4Ax are slower, but a bit stronger against Sp/Pk/Bd. (Having a +1 against Sp/Pk/Bd isn't going to help 4Ax if they're not facing Sp/Pk/Bd...speed might be considered more important. Ya pays ya money and takes ya choice)Anyway, don't blame me if this is how the ancient historians said the ancient solid 4Ax actually operated on an ancient battlefield. I'm just passing this information on... ...as they say, "don't shoot the messenger".
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Post by primuspilus on Jul 2, 2018 21:02:12 GMT
Stevie, you are missing it again. By adjusting 4Ax as you suggest, you are pretty much ensuring that 4Ax armies ALWAYS stomp 3Ax armies. The "schtick" of DBA is that no element is supposed to be good, and no element is supposed to be bad. Everything is situational and contextual. We may not succeed, however, I do not voluntarily wish to introduce or exacerbate imbalances.
4Ax are indeed skirmishing when they fall back slowly, from heavy foot, who have a harder time killing them outright than they used to. The purpose of a 1BW recoil is to encourage breaking off contact, for those that tend to recoil even more against HI than 4Ax & 4/8Bw.
Much of this could have been avoided by allowing elements to break off, going and movement allowance be damned. This allows Marathon, as well as Cannae. And breaking off against Bd will force them to pursue, so I am not the world's biggest fan of the lack of break-off.
For your 4Ax, you just move them back in your move, and save them. Voila.
But failing that, we are where we are.
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Post by medievalthomas on Jul 2, 2018 21:20:06 GMT
I don't think consensus is possible but for now just use Fast Spear out of D3H2 for better Aux and Shooters (+3/+4 Bow) from the same source to fix shooting. Ps still survive because they ignore Overlaps (corner) so its only +3 v. +2 not that many kills.
As to the original topic: my thought was to leave 8Bw as Bow (+2/+4) but give them the Shieldwall Ability (the give and get side support from Spear and 8Bw). This would make them +4 in Close but able to shoot advancing Hoplites on the way in.
These are easy to apply fixes already exist in D3H2 (except the Shieldwall for 8BW) and generally use existing rule mechanisms. If the consensus is the Persians really need at least this much help, I'll break my pledge to not alter rules in D3H2 and add this one (its not really a new rule just a creative application). I don't wish to go any further than this.
As to troop types: ADLG has largely dropped them for more flexible less abstract methods (one reason they are crushing the comp), Triumph has added more and more complexity an inevitable consequence of retaining them.
TomT
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Post by jim1973 on Jul 2, 2018 21:40:11 GMT
Hi stevie. Love reading your posts and thanks for the quotes. My copy of Duncan's work is on the other side of the planet. I'm not sure what's written can be taken in different ways. Here are some thoughts: Maybe this indicates that they should be 3Ax, at least some of the time, an army list problem rather than a rule problem. This reads to me that the Achaians were doing something unusual, maybe acting as 3Ax rather than 4Ax? Sounds like they were 3Ax through this period, not the 4Ax available on the list Again, I read this as early on they were 3Ax and could retire, whilst later they were 4Ax but I cannot see them retiring as easily. Again, I don't see anything to suggest that Scutarii (4Ax) retiring from the heavy infantry. They stood toe-to-toe. Nothing here to say to me that the "4Ax" would retire. Seems as though they would stand and fight. IMHO, I cannot see the case for 4Ax retiring one base width based on these excerpts. Sadly, this would agree with my 21st century thinking, that troops with enough troop density, armour, esprit de corps and spear/sword points to stand against legionnaires or a phalanx are unlikely to be as mobile as contemporaries that were not ashamed to back off and throw javelins. The problems may be in the army lists. But that's just my thoughts. Cheers Jim
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Post by stevie on Jul 3, 2018 4:22:20 GMT
That is a very good counter analysis Jim. Yes, it’s not easy to translate ancient writings into a modern set of wargame rules. (Even I have to admit that having Imperial Roman Auxilia recoiling/breaking off 1 BW doesn’t look right to my own 21st century eyes)Very well, I submit to peer pressure and therefore change my previous deductions:- Ps are light skirmishers, who don’t like getting into hand-to-hand combat (and should allowed to recoil/evade a full base width). 3Ax are peltasts, who can skirmish like Ps or fight hand-to-hand (so should also be allowed to recoil/evade a full base width). 4Ax are regular/veteran/professional 3Ax (better with a +1 against heavy foot, but they LOOSE the ability to evade 1 BW). Thus 3Ax have a speed advantage, but are weak against Sp/Pk/Bd. And 4Ax are slower, and recoil as normal, but are a bit stronger against Sp/Pk/Bd. As most 4Ax armies (apart from the Samnites) have the option of deploying as 3Ax or 4Ax, it’s as if their general on the day of battle has given them specific orders as to how he wants them to behave that day...either as peltasts (and evade charges by recoiling 1 BW), or to fight toe-to-toe and give ground slowly (as Hannibal did at Cannae). Leave it up to the players to decide. Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients, and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by greedo on Jul 3, 2018 5:12:56 GMT
As most 4Ax armies (apart from the Samnites) have the option of deploying as 3Ax or 4Ax, it’s as if their general on the day of battle has given them specific orders as to how he wants them to behave that day...either as peltasts (and evade charges by recoiling 1 BW), or to fight toe-to-toe and give ground slowly (as Hannibal did at Cannae). Leave it up to the players to decide. I'm on board, as long as we've got historical evidence to back it up, and it gives everybody's army a fighting chance from a game perspective. I was actually going to reply to this thread with EXACTLY the EIR as my example, but you beat me to it. Chris
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Post by primuspilus on Jul 3, 2018 12:39:21 GMT
I think the 1BW recoil for fast foot will make for interesting choices along with the +1 against HI, for 3/4 Bw and 3/4Ax. As a nice little side benefit, we get some nice hit and run tactics from Gallic 3Wb against the Romans!
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Post by jim1973 on Jul 3, 2018 13:18:25 GMT
That is a very good counter analysis Jim. Yes, it’s not easy to translate ancient writings into a modern set of wargame rules. (Even I have to admit that having Imperial Roman Auxilia recoiling/breaking off 1 BW doesn’t look right to my own 21st century eyes)Very well, I submit to peer pressure and therefore change my previous deductions:- Ps are light skirmishers, who don’t like getting into hand-to-hand combat (and should allowed to recoil/evade a full base width). 3Ax are peltasts, who can skirmish like Ps or fight hand-to-hand (so should also be allowed to recoil/evade a full base width). 4Ax are regular/veteran/professional 3Ax (better with a +1 against heavy foot, but they LOOSE the ability to evade 1 BW). Thus 3Ax have a speed advantage, but are weak against Sp/Pk/Bd. And 4Ax are slower, and recoil as normal, but are a bit stronger against Sp/Pk/Bd. As most 4Ax armies (apart from the Samnites) have the option of deploying as 3Ax or 4Ax, it’s as if their general on the day of battle has given them specific orders as to how he wants them to behave that day...either as peltasts (and evade charges by recoiling 1 BW), or to fight toe-to-toe and give ground slowly (as Hannibal did at Cannae). Leave it up to the players to decide. Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients, and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
I think that's a good place to start playtesting and then see how things go. Unfortunately nothing short of a message from PB will help Phillip ans Alexander's Hypaspists. Cheers Jim
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Post by primuspilus on Jul 3, 2018 14:37:10 GMT
I houserule my hypaspists as Fast Bd. Since in the early days, they could use pikes or swords as the situation demanded. They frequently hunted down 3Ax in bad going as well.
Fast Bd are a kind of an elite troop already!
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Post by greedo on Jul 3, 2018 14:54:37 GMT
I houserule my hypaspists as Fast Bd. Since in the early days, they could use pikes or swords as the situation demanded. They frequently hunted down 3Ax in bad going as well. Fast Bd are a kind of an elite troop already! I think (in another thread), it's mentioned that they are listed in DBM as Pk/Sp/Ax, so you get to make a game day decision about how they will fight that day (much like our 3/4Ax). For DBA 3.0 the army list could be 3Bd/3Pk/Sp/3Ax/4Ax. Versatile unit!
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Post by greedo on Jul 3, 2018 14:57:43 GMT
I think the 1BW recoil for fast foot will make for interesting choices along with the +1 against HI, for 3/4 Bw and 3/4Ax. As a nice little side benefit, we get some nice hit and run tactics from Gallic 3Wb against the Romans! So I forget, are we treating Bw similarly to Ax? i.e. 3Bw = same (1BW recoil) 4Bw = +1cc vs HI 8Bw = +1cc vs HI, +1 deep unit? Would you give 3Bw a 1BW recoil? It doesn't strike me as accurate, but might make things consistent. I do like the idea of giving all fast light infantry an "evade" maneuver. It wouldn't be for HI like 3Bd or 3Pk since they are powerful enough as it is, and they don't strike me as fighting like that anyway. But then we'd have to have 3Wb 1BW recoil as well...
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Post by stevie on Jul 3, 2018 17:43:41 GMT
Unfortunately nothing short of a message from PB will help Phillip and Alexander's Hypaspists. Cheers Jim Damn! Primuspilus has pre-empted me. Jim, see fanaticus.boards.net/thread/520/alexander-hypaspists-bladesAnd Greedo, I can only speak for myself, and I favour giving solid 4Ax/4Bw/8Bw a +1 in close combat against Sp/Pk/Wb, and the lighter fast Ps/3Ax/3Bw having the choice of recoiling or ‘evading’ a full base-width. (I’m not sure that all fast troops, such as 3Wb, should be allowed to ‘evade’...historically they don’t seem to have fought in ‘peltast fashion’, and 3Wb with rear support are quite powerful as they are what with their 3 BW movement. Indeed, it could be argued that two ranks of 3Wb shouldn't be allowed to evade because the rear rank would impede the front rank).Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients, and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by greedo on Jul 3, 2018 19:58:51 GMT
There's also Joe's idea of the +1PIP for a group contacting a group containing Bw, which I quite liked, he tested, and seems to resonate historically but in a more indirect "influence" way.
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