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Post by medievalthomas on Mar 28, 2018 19:44:58 GMT
I've breached this subject before but would very much like to get the communities views. Tournament season approaches and rulings will have to be made...
In the specific case of a moving group contacting a group:
Does the moving Group need to conform as much as possible to trigger the requirement that the non-moving Group must conform (or fight as if overlapped)?
Or does a moving Group merely need to demonstrate after front edge contact that it can not eventually fully conform to trigger conforming by the non-moving Group?
You will note in Diagrams 13a, 13b, 13c, 13d, 13e, the moving element/s have conformed as much as possible prior to the non-moving element having to conform but that is not (quite) how the rule seems to read. (Also note carefully that in all but 13d - where it is impossible - all moving elements have pivoted to get into "flat" front edge contact not having the assumed "as much as possible" language would mean that this is not required to trigger the non-moving conforming obligation).
TomT
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Post by stevie on Mar 31, 2018 22:24:51 GMT
I am surprised that no-one has answered this post. Oh well, I’ll have a go. This is indeed yet another ‘grey’ area in the rules, as it doesn’t say either way. When confronted with such situations, I usually resort to what I think would happen in reality. Think of two groups of opposing football fans, or a bunch of protesters facing the police. Would the moving/charging party really halt when they contacted the enemy, just because there is not enough space? Or would they all surge forward, with the rear ranks also moving-up to get stuck in? How does Fred at the far end of the line know that there isn’t enough space for them all to engage one-on-one? So I think that Tom is right, and the conforming troops should try to line-up as best they can. This is what they would do if there is no impediment… …after all, in reality they don’t measure the ground first, or are all glued to fixed bases. Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Mar 31, 2018 23:07:03 GMT
We play that you have to try and conform as much as possible (as illustrated in our videos.)
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Post by jim1973 on Apr 1, 2018 2:03:41 GMT
I agree with above. If you could otherwise legally have contacted but are restricted (eg board edge) you move as far as you can then the enemy chooses to conform or fight at a disadvantage. Covers the aims of "troops that would fight in real life should do so" and "limiting geometrical ploys"
Jim
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Post by medievalthomas on Apr 2, 2018 22:33:30 GMT
For now I'm going to rule that you have to conform as much as possible - and when you've "bumped" and can't conform any further that is what triggers the non-moving elements obligation to conform (or fight overlapped).
Please understand that when I broached this issue to the FAQ committee opinion seemed strongly the converse, so I tabled and would have had to use my veto power to avoid the opposite ruling. I may just try and keep it permanently tabled.
TomT
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Post by jim1973 on Apr 3, 2018 2:02:59 GMT
That's interesting! There's a lot of DBA experience in that committee so I'd be curious about their thoughts. I would've thought that the attacker moving as far as they can and then the defender making up the difference is the closest to the normal situation of the attacker having to move the entire distance to make contact. But I could be missing something subtle.
Jim
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Post by lkmjbc on Apr 3, 2018 2:42:28 GMT
That's interesting! There's a lot of DBA experience in that committee so I'd be curious about their thoughts. I would've thought that the attacker moving as far as they can and then the defender making up the difference is the closest to the normal situation of the attacker having to move the entire distance to make contact. But I could be missing something subtle. Jim It was a mix of opinions really. Some members are very careful concerning changing any of the rules as written. Others, found no problems with the current setup (only one side moves). In the end, it was tabled for further consideration. I personally haven't seen many shenanigans pulled with this... though you can on occasion. Most folks don't try and take advantage of it. I suppose if we see an uptick in people trying to use this to gain an advantage, then we will reconsider. Joe Collins |
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Post by medievalthomas on Apr 4, 2018 19:01:35 GMT
It comes from the sentence: "One party moves the minimum distance to so conform." Its a strange sentence inserted late (as I recall). I think its triggered after the "party" required to conform has attempted to conform as much as possible but others think it means after contact you figure out which party will eventually have to fully conform and then they do all the conforming. Its one of Phil's toss off sentences that gets into so much trouble. "Party?" We bent the last sentence of the next paragraph to get a favored result so maybe we can still convince them to do a work around to get the much better mechanic I'm suggesting.
Few people use this to advantage because like Tony above (who plays far more games than any member of the committee), most players don't use the ploy and instead require the original "conformer" to attempt to do so as much as possible. If we rule otherwise then the shenanigans will start. With the best of intentions we have moved the geo-tricks from the defending player (who used to set up in odd ball lines to prevent contact) to the moving player who now wants to prevent contact so that he can force the defending player to pull off into contact or fight as if phantom overlapped. We thought about not allowing you to use your own elements to create these problems for the defender but relented due to complexity of implementation.
Should have nixed old DBMM holdover phantom overlap rule.
Anyway thanks everyone for the feedback. I very much want to get a feel for how players/GMs want the rules to work.
TomT
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