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Post by zendor on Mar 7, 2018 11:56:05 GMT
I'm sorry, guys to raise once again the same topics, but I need to clarify some basic things for me. It'll be easier to explain them in examples, so I have two diagrams:   1) On the first, the group of Blades (A-B) moves forward in its full MA and at the end of the movement touches the front corner of the single Warband element (C). This create a contact between the group and single element, and therefore forces this single element of Warband conform to the group or fight as overlapped. 2) On the second, the same group of Blades (A-B) moves forward in its full MA and at the end of the movement touches the front corner of group of Warbands (C-D). This create a contact between these two groups and the group A-B have to conform. But it has no MA to conform, so there will no be contact (A-B just stop near by). Do I understand correctly these two situations? |
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Post by lkmjbc on Mar 7, 2018 16:42:00 GMT
Close...
1) The warband must conform. It has no choice in the matter.
2) Yes, precisely.
Joe Collins
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Post by zendor on Mar 8, 2018 8:33:39 GMT
Thank you, I get it! And If we have similar situation but the A-B group contact the rear corner of the Warband C. Will the Warband be forced to conform (by turning around, ect)? ![]()  |
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Post by primuspilus on Mar 8, 2018 13:07:28 GMT
Yes, it will conform, by lining up with its rear edge, and at the end of all movement, I believe it will then turn to face the group if not already contacted by enemy on the front or flank. This is important for maintenance of its TZ during movement, as far as I read it.
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Post by stevie on Mar 8, 2018 16:30:58 GMT
Primuspilus is correct. This very situation is actually described in detail in the latest January 2018 FAQ:- Question: I am moving a line of Spears as a group. I can just barely contact the rear corner of a single enemy Cav element in good going with my front. Does it have to conform? Answer: Yes. A group contacting a single element in good going with its front edge forces the enemy element to conform. In this case, the Cav will conform on contact to having its flank or rear (whichever requires the least movement) in contact with the Spear. The Cav will then turn-to-face after the movement phase. (A link to the FAQ can be found at the bottom of this page)Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by medievalthomas on Mar 8, 2018 17:57:10 GMT
Zendor:
Thanks for posting these questions. The FAQ team just issued some rulings on conforming (which at least around here tends to be the most frequently asked question).
In the first instance a single element is a mandatory conform - just like a moving group contacting a moving group must conform (if it can). A mandatory conformer has not choice - it must conform. BUT if a mandatory conformer cannot actually conform then the other group/element must conform OR it can optionally fight as if overlapped.
So:
In general the moving Stand or Group must attempt to conform to the non-moving opponent. There is one exception to this general rule: a single Stand entirely in Good Going contacted by a Group must attempt to conform to the moving Group. If the Stand/Group cannot fully conform, then the opposing Stand/Group must attempt to conform or fight as if overlapped.
Next issue is corner contacts. First thing we clarified is that a front corner contact counts as a front contact (so triggers immediate conforming). Your second example a rear corner contact is more vexing - it counts as a rear contact (I think) and triggers immediate conforming but does nor require you to finish conforming by turning to face. So first you pivot to line up corner to corner (rear edge to front edge) and then wait to see if another element contacts the front edge. If not at the end of movement you flip into full front to front contact.
We should ponder the does a rear corner contact count as side or rear (keep in mind the angle can be pretty steep and look like a side contact).
But the most vexing question is "conform as much as possible" or make not attempt to conform unless the element/group can fully conform. The former works much better (and ends up with more conforming the object of the new rules) but has little text support.
TomT
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Post by menacussecundus on Mar 8, 2018 18:56:14 GMT
Zendor: Thanks for posting these questions. The FAQ team just issued some rulings on conforming (which at least around here tends to be the most frequently asked question). In the first instance a single element is a mandatory conform - just like a moving group contacting a moving group must conform (if it can). A mandatory conformer has not choice - it must conform. BUT if a mandatory conformer cannot actually conform then the other group/element must conform OR it can optionally fight as if overlapped. So: In general the moving Stand or Group must attempt to conform to the non-moving opponent. There is one exception to this general rule: a single Stand entirely in Good Going contacted by a Group must attempt to conform to the moving Group. If the Stand/Group cannot fully conform, then the opposing Stand/Group must attempt to conform or fight as if overlapped. Next issue is corner contacts. First thing we clarified is that a front corner contact counts as a front contact (so triggers immediate conforming). Your second example a rear corner contact is more vexing - it counts as a rear contact (I think) and triggers immediate conforming but does nor require you to finish conforming by turning to face. So first you pivot to line up corner to corner (rear edge to front edge) and then wait to see if another element contacts the front edge. If not at the end of movement you flip into full front to front contact. We should ponder the does a rear corner contact count as side or rear (keep in mind the angle can be pretty steep and look like a side contact). But the most vexing question is "conform as much as possible" or make not attempt to conform unless the element/group can fully conform. The former works much better (and ends up with more conforming the object of the new rules) but has little text support. TomT Surely the rear corner contact isn't legal contact for the purposes of the rules and consequently the move doesn't happen? In that case, there is no need to ponder whether it counts as side or rear or how the element in question should conform. |
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Post by Michael Demko on Mar 8, 2018 20:45:38 GMT
Zendor: Thanks for posting these questions. The FAQ team just issued some rulings on conforming (which at least around here tends to be the most frequently asked question). In the first instance a single element is a mandatory conform - just like a moving group contacting a moving group must conform (if it can). A mandatory conformer has not choice - it must conform. BUT if a mandatory conformer cannot actually conform then the other group/element must conform OR it can optionally fight as if overlapped. So: In general the moving Stand or Group must attempt to conform to the non-moving opponent. There is one exception to this general rule: a single Stand entirely in Good Going contacted by a Group must attempt to conform to the moving Group. If the Stand/Group cannot fully conform, then the opposing Stand/Group must attempt to conform or fight as if overlapped. Next issue is corner contacts. First thing we clarified is that a front corner contact counts as a front contact (so triggers immediate conforming). Your second example a rear corner contact is more vexing - it counts as a rear contact (I think) and triggers immediate conforming but does nor require you to finish conforming by turning to face. So first you pivot to line up corner to corner (rear edge to front edge) and then wait to see if another element contacts the front edge. If not at the end of movement you flip into full front to front contact. We should ponder the does a rear corner contact count as side or rear (keep in mind the angle can be pretty steep and look like a side contact). But the most vexing question is "conform as much as possible" or make not attempt to conform unless the element/group can fully conform. The former works much better (and ends up with more conforming the object of the new rules) but has little text support. TomT Surely the rear corner contact isn't legal contact for the purposes of the rules and consequently the move doesn't happen? In that case, there is no need to ponder whether it counts as side or rear or how the element in question should conform. There was a long thread about this, which led to the recent FAQ update (which everyone should read IMO, since it clarifies some big gaps in the rules). I recall the answer being "yes, contacting any corner is legal contact and was always intended to be legal contact, but didn't get detailed treatment in the rules because of word-count restrictions". Somewhere early in the section on contact it is clearly stated that (paraphrasing) "Contact should generally be possible if one element can reach an enemy element, and close-combat should ensue. The rest is details". |
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Post by menacussecundus on Mar 8, 2018 21:21:50 GMT
Surely the rear corner contact isn't legal contact for the purposes of the rules and consequently the move doesn't happen? In that case, there is no need to ponder whether it counts as side or rear or how the element in question should conform. There was a long thread about this, which led to the recent FAQ update (which everyone should read IMO, since it clarifies some big gaps in the rules). I recall the answer being "yes, contacting any corner is legal contact and was always intended to be legal contact, but didn't get detailed treatment in the rules because of word-count restrictions". Somewhere early in the section on contact it is clearly stated that (paraphrasing) "Contact should generally be possible if one element can reach an enemy element, and close-combat should ensue. The rest is details". What the rules actually say, not paraphrasing, is "the general principle is that troops that would contact in real life do so in the game so that moving a front edge into contact with enemy always results in combat". However, the paragraph then goes on to define what counts as moving a front edge into contact with an enemy actually means for the purposes of the rules and then adds "if this is not possible, the move does not happen". If it were the intention that any contact at all resulted in combat, that last phrase is otiose - as is limiting the extra sideways slide to instances where contact is on the enemy's front edge. |
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Post by phippsy on Mar 8, 2018 22:54:51 GMT
Indeed, DBA is more specific on contacts. DBA is not DBMM which is much looser on what happens if a front corner or front edge contacts. DBA is more defined.
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Post by lkmjbc on Mar 9, 2018 1:41:42 GMT
Surely the rear corner contact isn't legal contact for the purposes of the rules and consequently the move doesn't happen? In that case, there is no need to ponder whether it counts as side or rear or how the element in question should conform. I'm a bit curious as to why you think it wouldn't be legal contact. It is under HoTT. It was also legal contact under 2.2... provided that the group was contacting individual elements of Light Horse or Psiloi. Remember under 2.2... individual elements of Lh or Ps were forced to conform when contacted by a group. In DBA 3 we simply extended that to all individual elements... the same as it is (almost) with HoTT. You are correct about the "Moving to Contact" section of the rules being problematic. I tried... what more can I say? Joe Collins |
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Post by menacussecundus on Mar 9, 2018 9:04:48 GMT
The reason I believe just touching a rear corner isn't legal contact is because at the end of the bound's movement phase the contacting element (B) isn't lined up in full mutual front edge contact with C, or in full front edge to rear edge contact with C or in front edge to side edge and front corner to front corner contact with C or with no enemy to its front edge but overlapping C.
As you say, touching a rear corner was legal contact in certain, very limited, circumstances under DBA 2.2; it may also be legal contact under HotT. For all I know, it may also be allowed under DBMM. But, since v3 is a different rule set, frankly (my dear), I don't care.
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Post by stevie on Mar 9, 2018 11:15:33 GMT
I see what you are saying menacussecundus about being in a ‘legal’ contact position at the end of the move phase… …but we haven’t reached the end of the move phase just yet - someone still has to conform. Remember that contacting an enemy is a three part operation:- Elements are moved --> contact is made --> lastly, someone must try to conform. (see fanaticus.boards.net/post/8186/) I think the confusion comes about because of the following:- Page 9 paragraph 9 says “At the end of the movement phase, the contacting (i.e. moving) troops must be lined-up”… But the last sentence of page 9 paragraph 10 says “Unless turning to face, contacted (i.e. stationary) elements conform on contact.” So which is it? One rule says the moving troops must conform, while another rule says the stationary troops must do so! Fortunately, the first sentence of page 9 paragraph 10 gives us the true picture:- “Single elements conform to a moving group unless in rough or bad going, otherwise the moving troops conform.” ( Personally, I think things would have been much clearer if the words “contacting & contacted” were changed to “conforming”, so that:-“At the end of the movement phase, the contacting conforming troops must be lined-up.” And “Unless turning to face, contacted conforming elements conform on contact.” …but I didn’t write the rules.  ) Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by martin on Mar 9, 2018 11:24:50 GMT
The reason I believe just touching a rear corner isn't legal contact is because at the end of the bound's movement phase the contacting element (B) isn't lined up in full mutual front edge contact with C, or in full front edge to rear edge contact with C or in front edge to side edge and front corner to front corner contact with C or with no enemy to its front edge but overlapping C. As you say, touching a rear corner was legal contact in certain, very limited, circumstances under DBA 2.2; it may also be legal contact under HotT. For all I know, it may also be allowed under DBMM. But, since v3 is a different rule set, frankly (my dear), I don't care. Groups contacting single elements is a bit of a ‘special case’, perhaps. The single element is required to conform immediately (?) upon contact, so BY the end of the movement phase of the bound it IS therefore in legal contact. At least that’s how I (choose to) see it. My view of it is that the rule is there to stop lone elements blocking up the board at minimum risk to their owner. Martin |
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Post by menacussecundus on Mar 9, 2018 12:25:26 GMT
Thank you Stevie and Martin.
So, if B were a single element the move wouldn't happen, because B doesn't have sufficient movement to make legal contact with the rear or side edge of C. Similarly, if C were part of a group, the move wouldn't happen - again because B doesn't have sufficient movement to complete a legal contact. But because B is part of group and C is a single element, C conforms. (Which I would take to mean that it ends up in front edge to front edge contact with B, so I don't think it actually matters whether the initial contact counts as side contact or rear contact.)
What would the position be if single element C were already in combat with an enemy element on its front edge? Could A and B move as a group and end in contact with C's rear corner or is the move cancelled?
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